Originally Posted by Chislev
Don't blaim all Maxican players. Some players pretend to be maxican to do KSing and such. I had it myself while minding my own business. This guy just came right in my spawn starting KSing and was pretending that he spoke only espanol no English. As living in California with 90% mexican made me responded him in the same language. That Maxican-wannabe suddenly spoke English fluently. :XD:
From a point of view, the words "enemy" and "friend" have no meaning.
My friend then you have never been the victim of false accusation and in all honesty, youre dangerously naive.
Here is the problem in a nutshell:
- Game accounts are of considerable value, not just money wise but also because of the time and energy invested in them.
- The only one judging the right of existence of said accounts are GMs
- GMs also are the only ones with the tools to actually investigate an incident.
- Thus GMs collect all 3 pillars of administration in one person:
the legislative: the make the rules all have to obey but themselfes
the judiciary: they judge upon all who are brought before them
the executive: they execute their own verdict
to add to this problem, everybody has to defend themselfes without any help because topics about bans are deleted here.
This is a serious problem in a social structure.
There is a very important reason why those 3 pillars are not allowed to be represented by the same person in a democratic society!
But because of pragmatic reasons were stuck with a system of virtual tyranny over our accounts.
Only few men on earth are good enough to be able to fullfil this role justly!
What makes you think all those who are appointed GM can do that?
Ill give you a recent example: Our own clan leader was accused of extensive ksing and personal insults just a few months ago. His account was blocked just before an imprtant BC event, our first attempt at defending BC. The accuser even provided a video as proof of his supposed deed. Now if GMSaturn was a lesser man and cared less about us he would have forgotten this and we would have been crippled. But he wasnt and other clan member and our clan leader were able to proove that this video was made on a private server and thus a fake. This incident just never had happened.
Your model of a perfect justice system just does not work! And its dangerous to build your life on an illusion that this perfect justice exists.
THERE IS NO PERFECT JUSTICE
There are only statements, opinions, observations and reason, all done by imperfect humans!
Last edited by SelenisAaargh; July 29th, 2010 at 08:52 PM.
I hope i wont sound rude because i don't mean to sound like that, but who did ever say that the game environment should be a democracy? It is not.
And yes, i was victim of false accusations in more than one oportunity (not precisely here, but in other game with much more rigid rules) and i always been given the chance to defend myself and prove i was innocent.
I don't ask anybody to think as i do, but i do trust in GMs who are working in every legally stablshed game company (i wouldn't trust on a p-server gm, for example, not even for a second) and i know they do their best to enforce the game rules in the best possible way.
Hmm... about the rules, don't forget that when you click on the sign in button you are accepting to follow and respect their rules, the other option is to not sign in and look somewhere else for another game (not directed at you, i'm using the "you" word in a general meaning).
right for those who can distinguish between reality and this virtual environment this might be enough.
But many identify a big part of them with their toon.
All your points still do not cover the possibility of false rulings.
You are infact implying that no GM should worry himself too much about that as long a guilty is found and sufficiently punished according to THE RULES.
Accepting a arbitrary set of rules is one part, accepting ruling by a legislator, judge and policeman in one person is another.
And actually proposing that this person should be a *terminator* is ridiculous.
What makes you think a *proper* company is any better than any other group of people?
From my point of view Suba is merely a collection of half amateures who decided to run basicly the web equivalent to a crack-den.
MMOs are after all considered to be able to cause dangerous addictions.
Are you seriously calling the last suba-year proffessional?
Id say the last 3 month saved alot but i guess only because of saturns efforts.
We were less lucky with the last person on his position if you remember.
Bump: http://forum.subagames.com/showthread.php?t=358
Also would you please show me in the rules of conduct any mention of the term *KSing* or *Spawnstealing*?
if you want to inteprete the section about respect of others this way.
Well we do have community rules about ksing but those are not automatically known to all new players.
And reactions to that can be quite disrespectfull.
My point is that the actual rules of conduct are not as clear in all instances as you think they might be.
Especially when it comes to social interactions.
So everything depends on the current ruling of the GM.
Last edited by SelenisAaargh; July 30th, 2010 at 12:25 AM.
What is a "false rule"? A rule is a rule, it cannot be "false".
Probably you've never played any non-computer RPG. The GM is the God (with capital G) of the game, eiter you accept it and play without discussion or you do not accept it and do not play at all. Simple choice.
It is easy, it is private bussiness, so the owner of the company set up the rules and they do not need the customers approval for those rules.
Besides that, IF anyone would be that crazy to put a separated powers system, who would pay the cost of it? it is just not possible and non practic.
Simple, i can legally prosecute them at any given time if i need to do so, even using international laws, can't do that to a pirate group like those running pirate games since they already are doing something illegal, so if you acept to play under their games you are supporting them, hence you also are a criminal before the law and they will not support you.
It depends on your deffinition of "proffessional"...
# [noun] a person engaged in one of the learned professions
# [noun] an athlete who plays for pay
# [noun] an authority qualified to teach apprentices
# [adjective] engaged in a profession or engaging in as a profession or means of livelihood; "the professional man or woman possesses distinctive qualifications"; "began her professional career after the Olympics"; "professional theater"; "professional football"; "a professional cook"; "professional actors and athletes"
# [adjective] of or relating to or suitable as a profession; "professional organizations"; "a professional field such as law"
# [adjective] characteristic of or befitting a profession or one engaged in a profession; "professional conduct"; "professional ethics"; "a thoroughly professional performance"
# [adjective] of or relating to a profession; "we need professional advice"; "professional training"; "professional equipment for his new office"
# [adjective] engaged in by members of a profession; "professional occupations include medicine and the law and teaching"
so, by the mere meaning of the word, yes, they are proffessional.
Now if you like to use the "toy" meaning of the word as children like to use it to call "pro" to someone who does things in the most "perfect" "elite" "flawless" way, well, sorry, that is not what the dictionary say about the meaning of "proffessional", it is a miss use of the word, just like when some retarded come an call a player "a pro" because s/he is 11x for example, it has nothing to do with proffessionalism.
http://forum.subagames.com/showthread.php?t=360
Let me quote just a tiny bit here:
According to that, someone who KS can (and should) be reported for harassment, hence get punished at GM's discretion.
In a certain aspect i agree with you on this, the rules were perfectly clear before the server's crash the last year and before Peter have messed them up and "simplified" them in the "new" version. Sadly i can't find where i have them printed in paper (yes, i always print the rules of the game i'm playing so i can read them in deep), otherwise i would gladly scan them and post them here, you would see that they were 10 times better, accurate and easier to understand than what we can read now. The current set of rules leaves way too many gaps easily exploitable to do just whatever could come to our minds, it is like if they were reshaped to that way on purpose.
I do believe that the rules should be rewritten in a more precise and understable way, and covering all the needed aspects, no need to be a genious to do that.
Yes, the rules are (and must be) set according to the current lead GM criteria, but they also need to be clearly written and all in a same place, not like they are now all spred around different posts and even in different sub-forums.
We've chatted many times in Game, Selenis, i hope you understand this is not personal against you.
The GM is no GOD and discussions are and always have to be possible.
A GM who does not listen to his community is infact a failure and needs to be removed.
My comments were in reaction to your call for an even more strict GM team hovering above all actions ingame.
I find the current i level of action enough, although those IGH advertisers should be removed faster.
You cant sue this company over anything happening ingame because per EULA we all are using Subas property, even our chars remain Subas property. So where do you see differences to any other group? And please spare me any more patronizing quotations of definitions.
You knew very well what i was talking about.
Harassment was defined on these forums and on the website quite extensively.
Its a targeted personal attack over an extended period of time, for instance hunting someone specific down each time youre on or infact ksing someone over numerous days.
In my opinion those rules are good enough. I did never say they have to be formulated more precisely, theyre quite precise when it comes to usage of bots and hacks and thats where they should be precise.
And i play this game according to exactly these rules. line by Line!
Social interactions cannot be catched by a few lines in a document a single person thought of.
Bump: Oh and one more thing<.
I know very well the reality of MMOs thank you very much.
I also know that because of pragmatic reasons, GMs need those powers, i already mentioned that.
But that also means that GMs have to act with care and subtlety, not with a big hammer as you apparently wish they should behave.
A GM behaving like that jand judging swiftly from a dogmatic standpoint will just drive paying customers away from a game and PT has enough very good competitors to worry about.
Last edited by SelenisAaargh; July 31st, 2010 at 06:47 PM.
I know what you guys are getting at about fairness, justice and truth, in terms of the GMs and admins running the server, and about how much power they hold over all over our accounts...
You guys bring up several valid points, like the problem with false accusation, and no means to defend yourself, unless you know someone who knows a GM, or know one yourself, so you can explain, as Selenis illustrated with the example of our framed guild leader.
From my experiences, I do have to say, I liked the Suba forum atmosphere, when I arrived. The boards seemed fairly clean of flames and fights, for the most part.
I think part of this, is owing to the ticket system, where to report haxxors or bad players, you have to file a ticket and as a reporter, you dont learn the outcome of your report either. I think its a good system, and I'll tell you why...
As some of you know, I used to be a GM for another game/server (not PT).
They didn't have a ticket system to handle problems. Everything was done on the forum boards. People would accuse the wrongdoer openly, show their proofs and GM's would make their judgement call (and sometimes this was done, after consulting the other GM's if the situation seem sketchy or the proof was inadequate) At first it was good...an open forum to discuss issues and wrongdoing, but then...
The forum soon turned into chaos and mayhem, with people flaming each other, and making accusations out of retaliation, and it got to the point were people were trying to get each other banned for whatever petty reason.
After a while, it got so bad, that even the GM's were not given the proper respect they deserved. If any one of us made a decision, next thing you knew, the punished person's friends started flaming the GM and their decision, which escalated to the GM's abilities and position, qualifications and then even to personal things like race. It got totally out of hand.
The GM's of course had to pass out warnings and bans to people who got way out of control and beyond the realm of what was acceptable to say to a GM. After they'd be punished, they'd come back and flame again, or get their friends to. More bans ensued. And how did all this start? Because reports/accusations were put on the public forum. The game soon went to hell, evolved into a horrible place of hatred and misery, and all the decent people, and GM's quit (like myself). Who wants to put up with that kind of atmosphere for several hours a day, every day?
I'm not sure what the happy medium would be...perhaps, keep the ticket system, but let there be a dialogue with the GM's either through PM's or emails, so that if a false accusation does arise, the accused can defend and explain their side.
I just know, that having accusations and reports filed openly for all to see, is the quickest way to ruin a site, and make it a place rife with jerks and haters. Needless to say the server I worked at, went from a population of thousands, to about 20-30 players. They're still struggling, and its still the same in-fighting and garbage all the time, and I thank god everyday a friend of mine (one of the other GMs) coaxed me away from it, and that I eventually found my way here.
It's not a perfect world, but trust me, its better.
Last edited by VeridianATA; July 31st, 2010 at 11:24 PM.
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