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View Full Version : High Str VS. Low Str: I don't understand.



Cmandial
July 4th, 2010, 01:12 PM
I have a level 56 archer (will probly have it to 6x by tomorrow). I am currently using synthetic armor and have 79 strength, and I have been trying to decide whether I should raise it's strength or just leave it. I keep hearing people tell me that the extra strength is not worth it and that it is wiser to invest in health instead. They argue that the extra abs from higher level armor is insignificant because at higher levels, monsters can hit 400 damage. My question is that if this is true, why don't I see more pure strength melée characters or pure spirit mages and priestesses. If abs don't matter at higher levels then wouldnt it be more beneficial for them to stay at base agility and pump their extra stat points to more damage? Someone in another thread calculated that by getting 70 health and staying at 79 strength, one would only have about 30 extra points to put into agility. Most melée characters get 68 agility, and by leaving it at base, they could have aroun 40 more points in strength. And if abs are really so useless, wouldn't I be better off sticking with my beginning armour for good and dumping those points into agility too? I guess what I'm not understanding is why abs are only unimportant to archers.

LTShop
July 4th, 2010, 02:21 PM
to clarify its all abot personal preference

As Frenzy Armour Min Str is 162

So to clarify u dont need higher than that max until u wana lvl up to 105 ..ive played both str/agi archers many years ago so its hard for me remember the advantages/disadvantages


best person to ask would be oooTINAooo or Icetaylor (was low str recently changed to FA 162 str)

Cmandial
July 4th, 2010, 02:45 PM
Ok Ty does anyone who has played both high and low str archers have a clarification or reason to go one way or the other. Or at least to say how much of a difference in damage or survivability it is.

Nnoitra
July 4th, 2010, 03:56 PM
High str is nicer for SOD and training maps, where the higher absorb makes you take hardly any damage.
Lower str is better for high maps, where monsters deal so much dmg, your abs wont help you, and low str archers have more points to spare for agility.
If your already at 79str, id say raise it to 83str for min str full plate armor.

ed teh gar
July 4th, 2010, 04:07 PM
to clarify its all abot personal preference

As Frenzy Armour Min Str is 162

So to clarify u dont need higher than that max until u wana lvl up to 105 ..ive played both str/agi archers many years ago so its hard for me remember the advantages/disadvantages


best person to ask would be oooTINAooo or Icetaylor (was low str recently changed to FA 162 str)

ice aged his armor. that proves he doesnt know much about ranged chars.

lmao.

Talk to a real archer. yeah talk to tina. or catch one from mid.

Dont talk to people who gained all their exp in x5 though. they lvled too fast to actually learn.

http://forum.subagames.com/showthread.php?t=690

erbse diagrams it quite well

"High Strength:
High Strength Archer waste their state points on Str in order to wear the best available armory. That way they ensure to be up-to-date defense wise as well as abs wise. Usually they go with base health in that case but the stats used on STR are in no comparison to what a Low Str Archer has to put onto health. Also, the additional weight limit gets killed by wearing a heavier armor.

Overall these Archer can’t compete with anyone or anything. It’s easy to outdmg and KS them if needed. They also are hardly a threat in Bless Castle. It’s also very likely that they’d lose a 1on1 Battle in BC vs a Low Str Archer anyday.

Personally I consider this build as weak and ineffective, it’s not the players fault but the classes one, Archer, if not build up properly are weak."

Cmandial
July 4th, 2010, 04:16 PM
Well icetaylo. Has 2 sets of fpa. One that he has gemmed and one that he aged I guess. I saw the mixed one today. And I imagine he aged one for training maps cuz of higher abs.

Bump: And doesn't strength give some hp too?

ed teh gar
July 4th, 2010, 04:21 PM
Well icetaylo. Has 2 sets of fpa. One that he has gemmed and one that he aged I guess. I saw the mixed one today. And I imagine he aged one for training maps cuz of higher abs.

Bump: And doesn't strength give some hp too?
not as much as those same points put back into health.


Also remember if your gettin armor for abs typically its aged.

aged armor + points into st does not add as much hp as mixed armor and those points into health.

Remember. 1 abs only negats 1 damage point.

So by raising abs by 25 your only negating 25 points of damage. Id rather have the extra 60 or so hp.


Lets do it mathematically

You have 50 abs and 400 hp. Monster deals 200 damage to you. You take 150 damage ending up with 250 hp.
Or you have 75 abs but only 350 Hp due to the loss of the 40 hp on the armor. You take 125 damage resulting in 225 hp.

Next hit its 100hp vs 100 hp. then 3rd hit kills you either way.


All of that trade off for the extra 25 abs or so and it still takes the same amount of damage to kill you. Only thing is you lose a ton of damage.

archers are going to die in 3-4 hits in loc or et regardless of abs. thus its better to be able to kill quick.

Plus most good archers wont get hit that often in the first place by usin the summon and hit and run tactics.

Cmandial
July 4th, 2010, 05:27 PM
Hmm ok then do u suggest using scale synthetic fma or fpa?

Nnoitra
July 4th, 2010, 05:41 PM
Scale makes it hard to find Boots, Gaunts and Brac with 68str
80D and 10x gaunts need 75~85str, meaning with FPA you can almost always wear a pair of gaunts, with FMA no problem :)
so id go either FPA 83str or FMA 90str

Cmandial
July 4th, 2010, 05:48 PM
I have some fma with 7.6 abs and 161 def. That's with 90 str req of course. If anyone has some fpa they'll sell me cheap that would be nice tho

ed teh gar
July 4th, 2010, 06:11 PM
Mix that fma for 40 hp and it'll be anice gear for a long time.

Also it'll make it easier to find wearable boots brace and gaunt.

Viseris
July 4th, 2010, 07:52 PM
Most bless archers (mid server) have high str to answer your question. It helps them evade (defend) more attacks and prevents being stun-locked by every attack.

ed teh gar
July 4th, 2010, 07:55 PM
yes but on mid server they also got alot of v rings and kelvs to make up for the loss of hp.

Not to mention its easier to get extra st for armor when your 106+ . most archers ive seen are above 106 in mid.

Also ptp 102 and 100 bows are boosted. So lowering agility for strength in mid doesnt lose as much power as it would in any other server.

and ive only see a handful of archers on mid anyway and only 2 got frenzys.


using mid for examples is terrible when trying to make a character in valento/awell.

Viseris
July 4th, 2010, 09:44 PM
Most bless archers (mid server) have high str to answer your question.


Hmm...reading comprehension...was simply a point for adding strength as an archer. It's the combination of defense and absorb that saves the high str archers from death (on occasion). Granted any non melee class with base hp will probably get pwned regardless.

Cmandial
July 5th, 2010, 01:12 AM
Any other people that like high str archers wanna give their views about why they like it better then low str and about how much survivability it adds. And once again if abs don't matter in hunting bosses and stuff why do people age armour for higher abs and stuff. I have yet to see a melée character with their armour 40 hp mixed.

MaMyPoKoPanTs
July 5th, 2010, 02:05 AM
Meelee charcs needs STR to boost their damage, and archers are abit different, they need to put in agi to boost their dmg. But at the same time we have to add some tal and str to hold our weapons. Range charc and meelee charcs are different in the way that range charc have lesser defence than meelee(no matter what you do. Unless you invest in health). In awell Zakt uses a hp gemmed low lvl armour if im not wrong and hes using a pure build. People aged their high lvl armour is because that high lvl armour have more defense than a low lvl armour, each age, it boost 5% of the total defense that the armour have. 100 def = 1 ABS. For the boots, gaunts and brace, people would not mind to invest some of their points into agility just to hold those high lvl boots,gaunt and brace as they have way more ABS and defence than the low lvl brace,gaunt and boots.

For archers, we can only rely on our wolverines to help us to tank in maps like, ice loc and higher lvl maps.

ed teh gar
July 5th, 2010, 02:31 AM
the reason melee does is they have the hp to back it up already.

IF the abs difference over time adds up to more then 40 its worth it to age.


Lemme show you.

take a 100 fs for example

1000 hp for example sake armor +12 gives him 90 abs
1040 hp with a 40 gem armor only gets 82 abs

Now lets say a monster does 200 damage each hit
1000hp guy takes 110
1040 takes 118
so
1000 -890-780-670-560-450-340-230-120-10-dead = 10 hits to die
1040 -922-804-686-568-450-332-214-96-dead= 9 hits to die.

by hit 5 they were both even in HP. the abs caught up to the static HP boost. After hit 6 the guy with more abs had more hp after every hit and took longer to die. BUT notice it took 5 hits. All classes can tank in a way to take multiple hits in a row like this except archers.

Prs have vl mages have es pikes have high block and evade atas have high block and evade knights get asb against undead and a block adding skill fighters have high hp pool and mechs have high block and good hp.

All classes cept archer have things to help them take hits over and over. Yes archer has the evade skill but that means no wolf phoe shot or fon until your super high.

Archers wont take 5 direct hits in a row like that. In fact most likely theyll try not to take 1 hit like that. And if they do they want that HP comfort boost to make sure they survive.

When you have high Hp already like melee does abs helps you over the long run. As you take more and more hits the abs starts to add up your using the abs more often.

But for archers they have such low hp most likely they will pot the first moment they get hit anyway. Thus the abs never really plays in. Thats why its better to have a higher initial pool to take damage from. But if you plan to get hit over and over abs will work in your favor.

Chislev
July 5th, 2010, 11:35 AM
Any other people that like high str archers wanna give their views about why they like it better then low str and about how much survivability it adds. And once again if abs don't matter in hunting bosses and stuff why do people age armour for higher abs and stuff. I have yet to see a melée character with their armour 40 hp mixed.

First of all it is a question of pure taste. There are enough arguments in favor of agi vs str archers to write several books.

Playing high str means playing low agi (not low HP because if you do that you wont get any good) so it means lower damage per second (i know many people like that term) so you are going to take longer to kill anything and you will have tons of people yelling at you more often than you'll like.

High str + high hp is the build if you want to have fun regardless of causing lower damage, you wont be tanking melee monsters of course (no archer can do that) but you will be more than capable of tanking every melee mob in the game without problems, that's all the tanking ability i expect from a well done archer.

Last, if you go high str you wont look like a noob forever wearing the same armor day after day after day and you can also have some fun playing with other items as toys.

As for the lesser damage, i have tested it countless times and the speed is not really slower than agi archers, while you stand in a place and shot the hell out of a mob, the agi archer loses a lot of time running to avoid it, so at the end the speed is basically the same, tested both in normal attack and using skills at same level and with exactly the same gears.

That is, as you requested, just my opinion as one of the few lovers of high str archers out there.

Cmandial
July 5th, 2010, 02:48 PM
Thank you very much:) and I'm guessing most high strength archers go with Ava because of the increase in survivability? A link to good guides for high str as well as low str archers would be good. And is there like rep or somehin I can give y'all for giving me helpful answers. On the forum I mean I'm super poor in game so I can't hand out items there:)

Chislev
July 5th, 2010, 04:03 PM
Uhm, i personally am against the use of avalanche, even if you are high strenght and high health build, you can always get caught in middle of the avalanche sequence and have some nasty times. I would say that if you are in party you can use ava, but if you go solo better use PS or whatever skill you like which would not make yourself a sitting duck. Given your actual level, give yourself some little time to experiment, you don't have to max the skill to start "feeling" it, all i can say is in my archers ava is level 1 and i'm not planning to raise it at all :)

For training, get perforation as high as you are willing to provide mana potions (once you get level 8x IF you can get valento rings/kelve amulet it gets much easier to manage mana), you can use wind arrow instead of normal attack, just leave it level 1 and you will always have the advantage of the extra speed and extra damage vs normal type mobs, train your wolf and just enjoy a very noce class to play with ;)

phi_420265
July 6th, 2010, 02:46 AM
ed teh gar is right .......there only at least three frenzy armor wearer Archers in mid server.... example is azurephoenix.... the rest are fma aged armor.. only few uses +40 hp mix fma since mid server has many val rings and kelve to use.....high str archers good for hunt and sod but relatively a bit lower damage than high agi archers....

minkwarrior
July 6th, 2010, 05:56 AM
Picture picture :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/minkwarrior/Priston%20Tale/2009-1-29-22-9-54.jpg

Despite using FA I still have my Wolverine to lvl10 which I often use in high lvl maps.

It's unfair to compare mid archers to valento archers since kelvezu, vr sets and ptp stat bows are higher.

Str Archers would have more carry weight but since the character updates this isn't a concern anymore for both low str. and high str.

Like Erbse's guide says it's a pretty useless build. But it's abuild that I'm comfortable with ever since.

Cmandial
July 6th, 2010, 11:16 AM
So in general would u say high str archers need to have evasion mastery or is it more beneficial to dump points into wolf? Oh and what order should I level T4 skills?

Mira
July 6th, 2010, 11:56 AM
with high level wolf more than not you can stand more and shoot if it goes behind you lure on it:evil:

eragonfan
July 17th, 2010, 09:47 PM
just today akitia was tellin me that low str archers are terrible and that from here "9" years of experience she knows wut shes talking about. so is she just being stupid and has no idea what shes talkin about and putting her nose in other classes where it dosnt belong? :rolleyes:

Mira
July 17th, 2010, 09:58 PM
just today akitia was tellin me that low str archers are terrible and that from here "9" years of experience she knows wut shes talking about. so is she just being stupid and has no idea what shes talkin about and putting her nose in other classes where it dosnt belong? :rolleyes:

she may not know how to play one:evil:

Chislev
July 18th, 2010, 11:42 AM
I consider low str archers as pathetic, but at least i do play a strenght archer myself :p (and an agi archer too, but everytime i play her i want to restat to make herself useful)

Eudoxia
July 18th, 2010, 01:18 PM
i am soooooooo sick of this argument so excuse me if i'm gonna sound a bit frustrated. *whips out quill to write a novel*

if you choose a high strength archer because you like the look or sit in the middle of a group of monsters all the time, that's fine. if you choose it because you think it's better than a low strength archer, you're an idiot. -___- for archers, health points are FAR better than strength points if you wanna survive.

i'm HORRIBLEEEE at math, but this is really easy you guys. i know these numbers will be a rough sketch.

1 ab means -1 damage. so if a monsters hits you for 100 damage, and you have 10 abs, you take 90 damage.

let's imagine one archer has perfect 80d armor and ages it +10, so now it's 23.6 abs. she has 144 strength and 90 talent to wear the lowest possible strength req. if a monster hits for 100 damage and she has 300 hp and 23.6 abs, she'll be at 223.6/300 HP

another low strength archer has 90 strength and wears FMA. its perfect abs is 7.8. she HP gems it to get +40 more hp. if a monster hits for the same 100 damage and she has 340 hp and 7.8 abs, she'll be at 247.8/340 HP.

so HP clearly has more survivability than abs right?? of course i haven't forgotten about better defence that comes with high str armor, and some hp that you get from strength points, BUT, the low strength archer also has 64 more stat points to put somewhere because she didn't put them in strength and talent. most put them in agility, but if you put a stat point in health, you get what, +2 or +3 more hp? so say she puts 20 into hp and 44 into agility. she'll have more damage AND much more health than you'd get from the 54 strength points and 10 talent points.

pure health points will always help you survive better. the archer strength formula is horrible! isn't it like that in EVERY GAME where archers are a class?

the ONLY time abs is better than hp is when you're being hit by multiple monsters! which shouldn't happen to archers if you know how to play. you get hit, you back away. maybe you'll be constantly hit by 1-2 range monsters, but c'mon. you have a wolf!

to compete with the +40 HP and extra hp from stat points, you'd constantly have to be hit by 3 monsters at the same time to make the extra abs and high strength more worth while.

64 stat points to get about -16 damage taken off your health whenever you get hit is ridiculous. especially when you can hp gem lower level armor, have 40 more HP which eclipses the -16 damage, and have 64 stat points left over.

high abs is good for SoD and archers who pretend to be tree trunks in spawns and that's it. end of argument!!!!!!!!

Chislev
July 18th, 2010, 04:22 PM
Luckily for you i am in the first of the reasons for chosing to play an str archer, otherwise i would feel quite ofended by your sentence.

but yes, there is enough of this to write a complete encyclopedia about how people chose to look like a noob forever in characters that are useless for anything unless they get soemone to care their sorry corpses after the mobs have finished them. When i play on the agi build and i get 1 hit killed by a gorgon in ET i really know how useless that build is, when i need 40 hits to kill a monster on the agi build and still die in 2 hits for every mob around, while i only need 10 more hits to do the same kill on a str build, i know again how useless the agi build is.

The health is not a valid argument, both builds SHOULD have a good develompent of HP, fool is who get to the top levels in any character build without developing their HP. In fact i bet my str build probably has way more HP than any "agi-hp" build out there, and i don't use those HP mixes since they mean nothing to me, the increment in 40 hit points for my character is just insignificant.

One thng about absorb on archers that always bugged me is that it seems not to work at all, no matter how good absorb you have, every hit you get makes you flinch, and most of the hits an archer receive seem to be a critical, all that whilst archers should be the hardest class in game to hit due to the fact that both agi and str archers has the hghest defense rate in the game, so that nullifies every possible argument about absorb. Oh yeah, i forgot, most PT players always thought that absorb is THE most important thingg in the game, well, it isn't, at least not for all classes.

Uhm.. no, archers in guild wars rocks, they have both great damage output and health base, but well, cannot compare a balanced game with PT despite how much i like pt.

So, in short words:

- If we take the Absorb issue for argumentation, i'm with you Eudoxia, it is plain stupid to think it will give a tangible advantage over agi builds.

- If it is about HP, both builds should have a good HP pool, and that is obviously done by investing stat points into it, not expecting to get miracolous HP from one single mixed item because that is not going to happen.

- If it is about damage, as i said, 40 hits to killa mob on a pure agi build, 50 hits on a str build using the same gear/skills, there is no difference.

- About raw defense, the str build has higher defense than the agi build.

What remains? oh yeah, looking noob forever or looking nice, sorry, i take the second, thank you.

Not to mention that even with the new carry weights, if you get all the potions you need for a medium decent run (no less than 1 hour without going to town) you wont be able to carry much loot, yeah, that's because specially for archers the STM formulas sucks. i guess not our fault, but still give an advantage for the str archer when it comes to be effective at carrying loot. yeah, im one of those who don't like to leave stuff laying on the ground, i pick up everything up. But again, that is personal.

In my conclusion, the only advantage of the agi build is to save me 10 shots per mob while having a lot more disadvantages compared to the str build (stilli i would prefer to call this str build it a balanced build, since still need agi for the top weapons and it's not adding more str than the required by the gear).

I am certain that this is one of those never ending discussions, at the root of it it is only a matter of taste, one like to kill a mob 12 seconds faster than the other, while the other like to look way nicer and laugh on mosnters face when they can't kill them in 2 hits.

Taste, just like opinions, are like butts, everyone has one and thinks that the other's ones stinks. Still, some of us respect them as they are, as long as they wont try to convince us that they are right and we are wrong because it is not possible, none is completely right, none is completelly wrong, so both are just all right. But there will always be someone willing to lit a fire and will start the same old discussion over and over again, but the outcome will always be the same, no one can win.

Eudoxia
July 18th, 2010, 05:04 PM
i'm not against strength archers at all. =o i get annoyed and when people pretend that low strength archers don't have good reasoning, like you just said in the post above mine "I consider low str archers as pathetic." also other people always say low strength archers are just asking to die or are really weak. it's just funny cause if you're a high strength archer who thinks you can skip HP you'll actually die faster. o_O

if you want an archer who will surive and not die, it's not about the armor. it's about the health.

you say you do it for the look, and that's why i'm FMA cause to me it's the most beautiful. =) if i really wanted to make every stat point count i'd wear Syn armor (BUT OMG u won't catch me dead in that horrible yellow + orange.) so i understand where you're coming from, cause technically i got 13 strength points too many. but high strength archers/armor agers aren't right when they say they survive better (unless they also got wads of HP).

i'm not attacking people's preferences for high str or low str. i'm attacking the opinion that high str is better for survivability. =o ofc everyone's allowed their preference on what they wanna wear.

and don't forget, abs do have a use: SoD! that's why if you're a SoD archer it's best to have a high aged armor to wear in there.

from what i know of you, you're a tree-trunk archer. so ya, high str should be okay for you then.

but people always ask what's BETTER (not what they like more), low str or high str. the answer is low str except for in SoD. but if you want the 80d look, then for sure go for it, i'm also really concerned about my archer's look. the point is when people come in here asking what's better, personal opinion on what you like more doesn't count. they're asking for the facts and the facts are that low strength + hp gem is better to survive in.

Viseris
July 18th, 2010, 05:28 PM
just today akitia was tellin me that low str archers are terrible and that from here "9" years of experience she knows wut shes talking about. so is she just being stupid and has no idea what shes talkin about and putting her nose in other classes where it dosnt belong? :rolleyes:

My point is ....I will pwn max level archers with frost jav. lol. They don't stand a chance in hell no matter what their agility or strength is.


Secondly, Exodia, you are underrating defense as a stat. Defense is what keeps players alive against a pike's cs, because they miss some of the time, its also their HP as well (mech/Knight absorb aside).

This relates to the fact that if an archer can get ~1400 defense with their bow out, they can stand in say iron 1 and take little damage, due to their defense stat alone. That's also the defense limit where 10x pikes miss me a ton, I have tested this you know.

ed teh gar
July 18th, 2010, 05:42 PM
the reason melee does is they have the hp to back it up already.

IF the abs difference over time adds up to more then 40 its worth it to age.


Lemme show you.

take a 100 fs for example

1000 hp for example sake armor +12 gives him 90 abs
1040 hp with a 40 gem armor only gets 82 abs

Now lets say a monster does 200 damage each hit
1000hp guy takes 110
1040 takes 118
so
1000 -890-780-670-560-450-340-230-120-10-dead = 10 hits to die
1040 -922-804-686-568-450-332-214-96-dead= 9 hits to die.

by hit 5 they were both even in HP. the abs caught up to the static HP boost. After hit 6 the guy with more abs had more hp after every hit and took longer to die. BUT notice it took 5 hits. All classes can tank in a way to take multiple hits in a row like this except archers.

Prs have vl mages have es pikes have high block and evade atas have high block and evade knights get asb against undead and a block adding skill fighters have high hp pool and mechs have high block and good hp.

All classes cept archer have things to help them take hits over and over. Yes archer has the evade skill but that means no wolf phoe shot or fon until your super high.

Archers wont take 5 direct hits in a row like that. In fact most likely theyll try not to take 1 hit like that. And if they do they want that HP comfort boost to make sure they survive.

When you have high Hp already like melee does abs helps you over the long run. As you take more and more hits the abs starts to add up your using the abs more often.

But for archers they have such low hp most likely they will pot the first moment they get hit anyway. Thus the abs never really plays in. Thats why its better to have a higher initial pool to take damage from. But if you plan to get hit over and over abs will work in your favor.
This is why Hp> abs for archers.

Bump:
Luckily for you i am in the first of the reasons for chosing to play an str archer, otherwise i would feel quite ofended by your sentence.

but yes, there is enough of this to write a complete encyclopedia about how people chose to look like a noob forever in characters that are useless for anything unless they get soemone to care their sorry corpses after the mobs have finished them. When i play on the agi build and i get 1 hit killed by a gorgon in ET i really know how useless that build is, when i need 40 hits to kill a monster on the agi build and still die in 2 hits for every mob around, while i only need 10 more hits to do the same kill on a str build, i know again how useless the agi build is.

The health is not a valid argument, both builds SHOULD have a good develompent of HP, fool is who get to the top levels in any character build without developing their HP. In fact i bet my str build probably has way more HP than any "agi-hp" build out there, and i don't use those HP mixes since they mean nothing to me, the increment in 40 hit points for my character is just insignificant.

One thng about absorb on archers that always bugged me is that it seems not to work at all, no matter how good absorb you have, every hit you get makes you flinch, and most of the hits an archer receive seem to be a critical, all that whilst archers should be the hardest class in game to hit due to the fact that both agi and str archers has the hghest defense rate in the game, so that nullifies every possible argument about absorb. Oh yeah, i forgot, most PT players always thought that absorb is THE most important thingg in the game, well, it isn't, at least not for all classes.

Uhm.. no, archers in guild wars rocks, they have both great damage output and health base, but well, cannot compare a balanced game with PT despite how much i like pt.

So, in short words:

- If we take the Absorb issue for argumentation, i'm with you Eudoxia, it is plain stupid to think it will give a tangible advantage over agi builds.

- If it is about HP, both builds should have a good HP pool, and that is obviously done by investing stat points into it, not expecting to get miracolous HP from one single mixed item because that is not going to happen.

- If it is about damage, as i said, 40 hits to killa mob on a pure agi build, 50 hits on a str build using the same gear/skills, there is no difference.

- About raw defense, the str build has higher defense than the agi build.

What remains? oh yeah, looking noob forever or looking nice, sorry, i take the second, thank you.

Not to mention that even with the new carry weights, if you get all the potions you need for a medium decent run (no less than 1 hour without going to town) you wont be able to carry much loot, yeah, that's because specially for archers the STM formulas sucks. i guess not our fault, but still give an advantage for the str archer when it comes to be effective at carrying loot. yeah, im one of those who don't like to leave stuff laying on the ground, i pick up everything up. But again, that is personal.

In my conclusion, the only advantage of the agi build is to save me 10 shots per mob while having a lot more disadvantages compared to the str build (stilli i would prefer to call this str build it a balanced build, since still need agi for the top weapons and it's not adding more str than the required by the gear).

I am certain that this is one of those never ending discussions, at the root of it it is only a matter of taste, one like to kill a mob 12 seconds faster than the other, while the other like to look way nicer and laugh on mosnters face when they can't kill them in 2 hits.

Taste, just like opinions, are like butts, everyone has one and thinks that the other's ones stinks. Still, some of us respect them as they are, as long as they wont try to convince us that they are right and we are wrong because it is not possible, none is completely right, none is completelly wrong, so both are just all right. But there will always be someone willing to lit a fire and will start the same old discussion over and over again, but the outcome will always be the same, no one can win.

DOnt make me remind you that you dont actually have an archer that can go to ET low st or high st. You just use someone elses which is not the same.

Eudo actualy lvled her self to 95. Therefore her argument seems stronger then someone who just hopped on someone else midranda 10x.


And that just proves my point. A real archer with years of exp wont even get touched by that nasty gorgon that 1 hit koed you.

Even azure phoenix ( a real mid 10x archer who lvled himself) said ag is better, but he uses st because hes used to it.

eragonfan
July 18th, 2010, 06:09 PM
i like FMA too lol. but yea my issue isnt really wuts better i spose its people like akitia telling me my build sucks :ehh:

ed teh gar
July 18th, 2010, 06:10 PM
You have your char set for how you play. If i log on your ata and die in a few hits ill say "this sucks. My _____ can take more hits then that"

Does it make me right? course not.

Viseris
July 18th, 2010, 06:13 PM
i like FMA too lol. but yea my issue isnt really wuts better i spose its people like akitia telling me my build sucks :ehh:

I have nothing against ur build dude. Its the fact that low strength archers shouldn't even enter bless haha...thats' my point. They are fine in PvE.

eragonfan
July 18th, 2010, 06:25 PM
and then i kept tellin her i hate bless and wont do it and she would not shut up!!!

Viseris
July 18th, 2010, 06:36 PM
and then i kept tellin her i hate bless and wont do it and she would not shut up!!!

Man, you never stop johnin' (QQing) do you. No one cares. Go complain to someone who cares really.

My thought about low strength archers is this: Since they lack a shield while wielding their weapon they need some sort of "insurance" for having lower defense and absorb. In PvE they have wolf. In Bless they do not. I told you the build was fine for PvE (aka vs. monsters) but its idiotic as a bless build to have low strength on an archer. Ata's can get away with it, since they have a shield....and 500 range.

Chislev
July 18th, 2010, 08:11 PM
from what i know of you, you're a tree-trunk archer. so ya, high str should be okay for you then.

Lol good way to say it :XD:

What i always try to say is that they are different but not better than the other, one may seem better for some people, while the other may seem better for other, but they aren't any better than the other in an overal conception.

At least we do agree in something: they need HP :rolleyes: I'm quite really tired of knowing about high level archers in base health.... :ehh: wonder what were they thinking about?

Ed, please, don't talk about using other's characters when you can't say you don't do that. I play on my friend's character and everyone who cares about it alreay know it. Your attempt to speak diffamatory on my have just failed (as it always do) Besides, you don't play archers ¿what are you doing talking here? Go play an archer, learn about them then come and speak, it is like if i go talk about playing knights, at least i have the decency to keep my mouth close on what i do not know.

Eudoxia
July 19th, 2010, 12:01 AM
hehe xD

but the entire point of my argument is that low strength IS better. =o you survive much more with low str and more health, which you admitted to. so no, i don't think it's only a matter of what seems best for people. if there are 2 apples for sale and one clearly tastes much better than the other, there's no argument around that fact. .__. you may choose to buy the apple that doesn't taste as good for other reasons, like you like the company more or it has a better color, but that doesn't change the fact that the other apple tastes better! high str only has these advantages: you glow like the mooooooon <3, you can carry more, you'll suffer less in SoD/standing in mobs, and you get better toys

and i think Eric's speaking on behalf of the stats and formulas. ^^ you don't need experience playing an archer to read the calculations and note which is more effective.

and actually i do have base hp. =) but i think HP is crucial for people who don't know how to play archers very well or are just starting off or like to play more casually. i restated to get rid of my hp points when i hit 80. i've played my archer since 2003, and i still die cause i'm a chatterbox in spawns, but i rarely die from Avalanche and i rarely die when i'm soloing. it's just a matter of knowing what your archer can take and going to appropriate spawns ^^

minkwarrior
July 19th, 2010, 12:58 AM
Ha ha! Chislev's archer is shaped like a tree trunk! :D

As long as Chislev's Archer that's pure agi is in front of me I have nothing to fear! He's PT's Leeroy Jenkins after all! :D

ed teh gar
July 19th, 2010, 03:07 AM
Lol good way to say it :XD:

What i always try to say is that they are different but not better than the other, one may seem better for some people, while the other may seem better for other, but they aren't any better than the other in an overal conception.

At least we do agree in something: they need HP :rolleyes: I'm quite really tired of knowing about high level archers in base health.... :ehh: wonder what were they thinking about?

Ed, please, don't talk about using other's characters when you can't say you don't do that. I play on my friend's character and everyone who cares about it alreay know it. Your attempt to speak diffamatory on my have just failed (as it always do) Besides, you don't play archers ¿what are you doing talking here? Go play an archer, learn about them then come and speak, it is like if i go talk about playing knights, at least i have the decency to keep my mouth close on what i do not know.

But i dont.

I dont use other peoples chars for 5 minutes and say. People forget that ive done bils and bils of exp on 75% of the pt classes. Most of the knowledge i had i gathered before mid ever came here.
I dont log someone elses char and go:
I KILL ALL MY BUILD IS GOOD!

Or

I DIED SO EASY THIS BUILD IS SUXXX!

I understand that everyone build is custom made and specific to each individual.

For example that low st archer you used that died so quick. Have you ever seen the owner on it? I bet they have a play style where they dont get hit at all.


Mathmatically the numbers do not lie. Having more abs does not increase survivability over having a more hp oriented build.


Most of my archer information is based off years of conversations about builds and pt calcs with erbse. Because ive never played ranged chars (ata or archer) ive always been curious as to their performance. So ive been picking his brain about them for years. Erbse got to 95 with 0 exp events and 0 cash shop ( no rebirths no exp boosts) using 80b at best. If thats not pr0 enough then i dont know what is.

I dont need to play an archer to know about the math just like eudo said.
Not to mention that an actual mid archer who lvled their own char and HAS high st agrees its useless. What more do you want?


And dont take everything so personal. No one is defaming you. This isnt me vs you. You always make your self as some victim. It is simple a conversation using logic to make points.
My point is the truth: you dont have real experience on high lv archers. I have no idea how that is defamatory.

adamking89
July 19th, 2010, 08:25 AM
My first char was a archer, but i ended up retiring her coz i went to str build.

Trust me man, they kill slow, another downside is that archers use up a fair amout of mana and by killing slow u'll be using more mana which kinda sucks due to prices nowday AND even hunting ur own mana will take forever coz u just kill so dam slow. Also, everyone thinks that str archers dont die as much as agi archers, ive tested it and found out that agi archers acctually can take the dmage just the same as str archers. not really much of a diff to me, u only have to be carefull of the ranged mobs.

If your a good player u dont have to worry about geing hit, wolf is stupid but if u know how to use him well 1v1 with high lvl mobs will be a sinch.

p.s dont worry about akitia, hes just a retard that likes to run his mouth. He thinks he knows what hes talking about but acctually hes a dumb ass.

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 10:01 AM
Hmm. Actually, I do what I'm talking about. Leave this topic troll. I'm am talking about Archers in bless.

Having more hp effects the mod of virtual life. I'm stating that in bless castle, Archers have no defense against frost jav, and they will die to an experienced ata, every single time. That's my point dude. Their health stat determines their survivability, but not only that, if you have lower absorb, you'll probably get 1 shot with things like CS, split jav, Devine piercing, any attack that hits 3 times or more.


For example, a 600 hp low strength archer doesn't make sense, because they have like 50 absorb and 0 block and with their bow out. But a 70 absorb 1200 defense 450 hp archer, would be more of a threat in bless castle since they dodge attacks, and can probably stun people to infinity with wind arrow because it comes out so fast.

That same archer can probably get ~1400 defense if they put on a claw and ata spec vamp shield getting 1400 defense, and that defense is what dodges CS from 10x pikes.

Eudoxia
July 19th, 2010, 11:15 AM
Hmm. Actually, I do what I'm talking about. Leave this topic troll. I'm am talking about Archers in bless.

Having more hp effects the mod of virtual life. I'm stating that in bless castle, Archers have no defense against frost jav, and they will die to an experienced ata, every single time. That's my point dude. Their health stat determines their survivability, but not only that, if you have lower absorb, you'll probably get 1 shot with things like CS, split jav, Devine piercing, any attack that hits 3 times or more.


For example, a 600 hp low strength archer doesn't make sense, because they have like 50 absorb and 0 block and with their bow out. But a 70 absorb 1200 defense 450 hp archer, would be more of a threat in bless castle since they dodge attacks, and can probably stun people to infinity with wind arrow because it comes out so fast.

That same archer can probably get ~1400 defense if they put on a claw and ata spec vamp shield getting 1400 defense, and that defense is what dodges CS from 10x pikes.

oO; i'm not a BC archer, but i understand it. the key isn't to try to survive, cause everyone dies, no matter what their def/abs/hp! the archer trick is to kill faster before they can get to you o.o i mean no flower is gonna survive after the hulk sits on it XD

no archer who can pump str & hp enough to survive CS will ever have the attack power to actually knock down a 9x-10x char. if you wanna survive in BC, choose a mage or a mech

BC archers are low strength, high agi, PS 10 & evasion , and shield out as soon as you're done attacking. you're gonna die, that's unavoidable!

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 11:22 AM
no archer who can pump str & hp enough to survive CS will ever have the attack power to actually knock down a 9x-10x char.!

That isn't really true. Because if you put on a devine mixed shield and claw (for the defense) you are getting +60 defense and +60 hp!. That is a huge difference for taking hits or standing out in the open past the flags before you see a position where you can strike someone for a kill. Pikes sneak up on people. Thats what they do. So you have to put up those defenses, laugh at the fact that you dodged them and when they try to run away, you gun them down. That's how its done.

adamking89
July 19th, 2010, 11:54 AM
dont be dumb, str archer in bc, who u gonna kill? 7x'es? wind arrrow doesnt do squat in bc.
try n take a hit from tina's ph shot. stings like hell when she spams it. ive acctually asked tina once in party whats its like in bc for her, she gets triple kills with performation.could a str archer do that? dont think so. archers that wanna survive a cs have there best bets on evasion and block from their shields. preeety much about it. u wanna talk about archer builds? go make an archer. learn from exprience. 10x pikes can deal 1k+ dmage, wtf is 80 abs gonna do? reduce the dmage to 920? archers arnt ment to tank, but they can deal massive dmage.

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 12:12 PM
Dude its the fact that once you reach a certain defense cap which was around ~1400 defense when I tested in bless, every single pike attack (including CS) misses like hell aka 0 damage. It doesn't matter what class you are, but at the same time, you will still die if you don't have an adequate hp buffer.

Eudoxia
July 19th, 2010, 12:14 PM
That isn't really true. Because if you put on a devine mixed shield and claw (for the defense) you are getting +60 defense and +60 hp!. That is a huge difference for taking hits or standing out in the open past the flags before you see a position where you can strike someone for a kill. Pikes sneak up on people. Thats what they do. So you have to put up those defenses, laugh at the fact that you dodged them and when they try to run away, you gun them down. That's how its done.

o.O well of course shield and claw hp mixed would make a difference STANDING in BC, but not attacking. and you don't have to be high strength for that! the difference between a 5x shield and an 8x shield will be barely noticeable for archers in BC when a pike comes after you. all that matters is the +40 hp mix or the block. spending 64 extra points in strength & talent just to get about 5 more abs and 100 more def from a shield to ONLY survive in BC is ridiculous.

the point is BC archers aren't BC archers to survive! they're there to kill. and to kill you need high agility, not high abs and def.

ed teh gar
July 19th, 2010, 12:19 PM
Dude its the fact that once you reach a certain defense cap which was around ~1400 defense when I tested in bless, every single pike attack (including CS) misses like hell aka 0 damage. It doesn't matter what class you are, but at the same time, you will still die if you don't have an adequate hp buffer.

the defense thing is a lie.


I have over 2k def on 2 diff chars.

And they can still get killed by people with 1400 att rat or so.

You have no idea what your talking about.

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 12:24 PM
the defense thing is a lie.


I have over 2k def on 2 diff chars.

And they can still get killed by people with 1400 att rat or so.

You have no idea what your talking about.

What is your hp, what is your absorb. You are not supplying enough information. And last but not least, what is your evade/Block. All of these are important in bless castle sir.

If you are floating around with a 2 hander all the time, yes it will be easier to kill you.

ed teh gar
July 19th, 2010, 12:56 PM
What is your hp, what is your absorb. You are not supplying enough information. And last but not least, what is your evade/Block. All of these are important in bless castle sir.

If you are floating around with a 2 hander all the time, yes it will be easier to kill you.

Does that matter? You flat out said def over 1400 stops pikes giving you 0 damage. WHy should hp abs or anything else matter based on your sentence.

mech and knight. 2 hand or 1 hand doesnt matter because block adds to your 2 hand from shield skill.


ks 1 hand = 1020 hp 2392 def 126 abs 30% blk
2 hand = 1000 hp 2057 def 107 abs 20% blk

mech = 1 hand = 834 hp 2040 def 156 abs 37% blk
2 hand = 784hp 1708def 136 abs 27% blk



@chislev you might say that low st archer sucks that you played because it dies fast. Well if i was to log someones high st archer i would say it sucks because it kills so slow.
Who is right?
Neither of us if you base it just on that experience.

However the argument is not which one sucks but rather how they compare to each other. And low st archer wins.

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 03:03 PM
Does that matter? You flat out said def over 1400 stops pikes giving you 0 damage. WHy should hp abs or anything else matter based on your sentence.


Jumping the gun, son. I never said it flat out stopped cs, I said that was the defense "minimum" where 10x pikes cs misses alot. You are forgetting that knights and mechs do not have evade, and shield archers, pikes and ata's do.

ed teh gar
July 19th, 2010, 03:19 PM
Jumping the gun, son. I never said it flat out stopped cs, I said that was the defense "minimum" where 10x pikes cs misses alot. You are forgetting that knights and mechs do not have evade, and shield archers, pikes and ata's do.

then why didnt you say any of that?


Besides a mech with ES on has more block then an archer has block + evade.

btw this is about archers not ata


"Dude its the fact that once you reach a certain defense cap which was around ~1400 defense when I tested in bless, every single pike attack (including CS) misses like hell aka 0 damage. It doesn't matter what class you are, but at the same time, you will still die if you don't have an adequate hp buffer."

So it doesnt matter what class you are but only atas and archers can do it?

What?

Mira
July 19th, 2010, 03:48 PM
where is the popcorn:confused:

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 04:38 PM
You are the one claiming you are dieing lol, not me. :awsum:

If you are, you are doing something foolish like running around with a 2 hander out or getting attacked by multiple people at once with those stats.

Samaldanach
July 19th, 2010, 05:47 PM
Yeah.


You dont know how strong pikes cs really is.


First you say 1400 defense defendes all classes from pikes. Now your back tracking.


Trust me a reaper on any 102 pike will kill you with vanish and cs. I dont care how much hp or def you have.

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 06:03 PM
You do know that vl adds hidden absorb right? (Since the suba update this past march)

And I'm not backtracking anything. A Cs has to miss you on 1-2 shots for you to live, if all three connect and the pike has on a devine force or higher you are probably dead. I stated that having greater than 1400 defense helps for you to defend against some hits in that cs 3 hit string increasing your chance of survival. But at the same time, you need adequate hp and absorb or you will be floored regardless.

ed teh gar
July 19th, 2010, 06:55 PM
what does vl have to do with anything.


Were talking about archers :ehh::ehh::ehh::ehh::ehh::ehh:

Why do you keep bringing in random pointless bs.

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 08:13 PM
To prove that I know what I'm talking about and you do not. Quite simple.

Relating to archers, if they would put on devine mixed shields and claws more but not only that, have a decent level of evade, but not only that! Have better than a 51 armor. They would survive more and not be crying like tina at level 105-108 that they die so easily with low str in bless.

Zwe
July 19th, 2010, 08:35 PM
As someone has already said. In the end its not about who tank the best, its who kill the most.

It have been alot of talk of BC. Str archer wont do any dmg as a low str archer will.

Sure def, abs, hp will help you when a pike Cs you but still, Its all about luck.

I rather keep my stats to agi so I can down the pike before he gets to me.
A str archer cant do that and will still die.

adamking89
July 19th, 2010, 09:37 PM
@ ed,
lmao dude just forget it, that akitia guy is a moron. almost every pike in valento has had arguments with him about this kinda crap, and one day when i finally proved him wrong and made him eat his own words he just started making more excuses, its never ending man.just hope one day u'll meet him on the street.

Viseris
July 19th, 2010, 09:57 PM
@ ed,
lmao dude just forget it, that akitia guy is a moron. almost every pike in valento has had arguments with him about this kinda crap, and one day when i finally proved him wrong and made him eat his own words he just started making more excuses, its never ending man.just hope one day u'll meet him on the street.

You don't get it do you. Atalanta's are archer killers simply because of frost jav and their range.

And obviously dude. I will floor you at 10x. Can't wait. (Probably sooner) :P Good luck defending against frost jav 10

ed teh gar
July 19th, 2010, 10:22 PM
To prove that I know what I'm talking about and you do not. Quite simple.

Relating to archers, if they would put on devine mixed shields and claws more but not only that, have a decent level of evade, but not only that! Have better than a 51 armor. They would survive more and not be crying like tina at level 105-108 that they die so easily with low str in bless.

I dont see tina crying. Do you?

Besides if you have ever been to bcs youd know that if tina decides to go he usualy has more bps then most of the pikes runnin around vanished. Im pretty sure he does just fine with his build.

Bump:
You don't get it do you. Atalanta's are archer killers simply because of frost jav and their range.

And obviously dude. I will floor you at 10x. Can't wait. (Probably sooner) :P Good luck defending against frost jav 10

hate to break this to yoiu but pikes are naturally strong against frost skills due to frost mastery skill.

Frost elements DO reduce frost time and damage. Sorry.

minkwarrior
July 19th, 2010, 10:36 PM
Archer's work best on castle defense. They work great with support attack, that's why Archer's are taken out first in BC. I push my str Archer to PVP with 1600+ DEF and 98 ABS. Adding the shield and Quest Claw sums up to 1900+ DEF (i think I'll get back to that) and 106 ABS and that still does squat when taking hits from an Pike or a Fighter. As for attack power with a PTP Stat Bow it's potent enough to kill a char in 2-hand but before an Archer could do that.... BAM!! BSB! :XD:

Erbse
July 20th, 2010, 02:33 AM
ITT: Pikes thinking they were good at the game while they're really not.

MaMyPoKoPanTs
July 20th, 2010, 04:36 AM
Archer's work best on castle defense. They work great with support attack, that's why Archer's are taken out first in BC.

+1. people are always aiming for archers first in BC. =(

KalicoKitty
July 20th, 2010, 12:20 PM
Ok, so you're saying a low strength archer hit harder than a high str archer. But the low str archer dies more than the high str archer. So....If you go low str you kill faster and die more often.
Go high str, you kill slower die less often.. Wolf can only tank so many mobs at a time,and the only GOOD skill an archer has is avalanche and the freaking creators put a delay on it at lvl 7..You can't use potions nor can you move while useing the skill!...The next skill worth speaking of is Perf and unless you're rich and can afford the Mana to use it, then it's not used that often, and again, creators made no flinch after lvl 70 mobs! It's a rip either way lol... either die all the time and have to run back to spawn 957,934.55kk times, or add str and stay and fight longer and kill a little slower. Cause no matter how fast you kill, you ARE going to get hit by mobs. There has to be an in-between somewhere. We should be able to kill fairly fast with skills and still be able to tank a little.

Bump: Also since they made archer so that they shouldnt have high strength, then they should have made different lvl's of leather armor with better protection.. But to get better protection we have to add str out the wazzzzzzzoooooo!

Eudoxia
July 20th, 2010, 12:26 PM
Ok, so you're saying a low strength archer hit harder than a high str archer. But the low str archer dies more than the high str archer. So....If you go low str you kill faster and die more often.
Go high str, you kill slower die less often.. Wolf can only tank so many mobs at a time,and the only GOOD skill an archer has is avalanche and the freaking creators put a delay on it at lvl 7..You can't use potions nor can you move while useing the skill!...The next skill worth speaking of is Perf and unless you're rich and can afford the Mana to use it, then it's not used that often, and again, creators made no flinch after lvl 70 mobs! It's a rip either way lol... either die all the time and have to run back to spawn 957,934.55kk times, or add str and stay and fight longer and kill a little slower. Cause no matter how fast you kill, you ARE going to get hit by mobs. There has to be an in-between somewhere. We should be able to kill fairly fast with skills and still be able to tank a little.

^^' you didn't read any of the posts on this board, did you? it's actually the opposite:

low str archer with HP gem and some points in health kills faster and survives better than a high str archer.

high str archer with aged armor kills slower and dies faster than a low str archer.

high str looses on both sides. =o archers survive longer with health, not abs or defence.

Viseris
July 20th, 2010, 02:35 PM
^^' you didn't read any of the posts on this board, did you? it's actually the opposite:

low str archer with HP gem and some points in health kills faster and survives better than a high str archer.

high str archer with aged armor kills slower and dies faster than a low str archer.

high str looses on both sides. =o archers survive longer with health, not abs or defence.

No offense this doesn't make sense because if you take another example, like priestess with 1300 hp, they also die in 2 seconds. So I think absorb and defense plays a factor.

Eudoxia
July 20th, 2010, 03:17 PM
No offense this doesn't make sense because if you take another example, like priestess with 1300 hp, they also die in 2 seconds. So I think absorb and defense plays a factor.

you're off topic again X'D

it makes perfect sense if you go back and read mine and Ed's posts.
you can't compare a priestess who stand in the middle of a huge spawn casting DL with an archer who stands outside it using perfo.

abs & defence will benefit an archer & priestess if they get hit by multiple monsters a lot. hp will benefit an archer & priestess who don't get hit very often or only get hit by 1-3 monsters at a time.

DamnItsWiggle
July 20th, 2010, 11:31 PM
Viseries and his hp. Lol

EDIT: Akitia and his hp*

Erbse
July 24th, 2010, 09:42 AM
Okay, time to sum it up again.

Low Str = More Damage and same/better survivability when hunting.
High Str = Less damage (at all times) and better survivability when leveling and fighting monster zergs.

The end.

Chislev
July 24th, 2010, 11:59 AM
Okay, time to sum it up again.

Low Str = More Damage and same/better survivability when hunting.
High Str = Less damage (at all times) and better survivability when leveling and fighting monster zergs.

The end.

I like that one :)

Oldscool67
July 25th, 2010, 10:57 AM
IMO, you'll get killed in BC no matter what your armor is. Mechs and Knights, who probably have the highest def, can get killed by Pikes. Lower STR will at least give you that chance that you might kill opponents before they come close to you. I also recommend limiting SPR to AS Murky requirements, as it will also allow you to wear AS Kelvesu amulet and Valento rings (not sure if they have better jewelry now).

I know that wearing high-level armors will make you look awesome, but then, as in real life, looks aren't everything.

minkwarrior
July 27th, 2010, 12:37 AM
Okay, time to sum it up again.

Low Str = More Damage and same/better survivability when hunting.
High Str = Less damage (at all times) and better survivability when leveling and fighting monster zergs.

The end.

Me like! Amma survivah!:XD:

Viseris
July 27th, 2010, 11:07 AM
IMO, you'll get killed in BC no matter what your armor is. Mechs and Knights, who probably have the highest def, can get killed by Pikes.

About this...Archers and Ata's have evade. So in essence, it acts like a "HP Cushion". This allows the classes to run around with lower hp because with the bonus evade, you will be missing them far more than knights and even Mechs with Extreme Shield 10. (I'm talking about Archers with a shield up in my equation here.)

You might claim Pikes have evade too. Well, pikes are sitting ducks in the middle of a battlefield, as they have no ranged attacks. So essentially if they are stun locked by a horde of ranged attackers, they have no counter to that.

My entire point in this charade is that, atalanta's will own low str/hp archers every single time in bless (slight exaggeration :P). With a less than 40 percent chance to hit them, there is no way you will be 1 shotting the ata, and they outrange you anyways. I honestly don't see how an archer can best a talented atalanta in a fight. Impossible.

Where am I getting at? Ultimately, its the archer's choice what build they want to pull off. However, I guarantee you won't get 2 steps past the bless flags before every pike in existence takes you down (low str/hp).

KushAndOrangeJuice
July 27th, 2010, 11:29 AM
About this...Archers and Ata's have evade. So in essence, it acts like a "HP Cushion". This allows the classes to run around with lower hp because with the bonus evade, you will be missing them far more than knights and even Mechs with Extreme Shield 10. (I'm talking about Archers with a shield up in my equation here.)

You might claim Pikes have evade too. Well, pikes are sitting ducks in the middle of a battlefield, as they have no ranged attacks. So essentially if they are stun locked by a horde of ranged attackers, they have no counter to that.

My entire point in this charade is that, atalanta's will own low str/hp archers every single time in bless (slight exaggeration :P). With a less than 40 percent chance to hit them, there is no way you will be 1 shotting the ata, and they outrange you anyways. I honestly don't see how an archer can best a talented atalanta in a fight. Impossible.

Where am I getting at? Ultimately, its the archer's choice what build they want to pull off. However, I guarantee you won't get 2 steps past the bless flags before every pike in existence takes you down (low str/hp).

Uhh... you make Atalanta's seem like they are the best class. I guarantee you if [bxzj]ray and vn_hello both CS's you at the same time, you'd drop. I don't care if you have 2k hp and 50% Evade, you're going down. Lol.

Nnoitra
July 27th, 2010, 11:45 AM
VN has lvl 1 CS and vanish isn't 10, so i doubt he can kill you with cs alone :D

eragonfan
July 27th, 2010, 12:05 PM
where is the popcorn:confused:

hahahaha!!! kettle corn please!!!!:awsum:

Viseris
July 27th, 2010, 12:24 PM
Uhh... you make Atalanta's seem like they are the best class. I guarantee you if [bxzj]ray and vn_hello both CS's you at the same time, you'd drop. I don't care if you have 2k hp and 50% Evade, you're going down. Lol.

Not if they miss every attack cause of their pitful AR lol. And this comes from a player than tanked a 10x pikes vanish cs and a 9x pikes vanish cs simulateously on an ata (lvl 89 at the time). I know what I'm talking about. I was at 3/4 hp after this lol.


And Secondly, I don't even know how we got on this tangent. I was just giving support for why High str archers survive better in bless. Not only do they get better armor, but shields as well (assuming ata spec 80d-10x shields but they can probably wear any spec shields if they go for 100-102 as str req).


What people fail to understand is that absorb is extremely helpful for lessening multi-hit attacks in bless castle. Not much the case in player v. monster as they mostly hit once slowly. I don't know the exact formula's in bless, but if you have say 70 abs (high str archer no shield) vs. 50 abs (low str archer no shield) that's a huge difference in lessening the damage from any attack. Even though it seems like a negligible difference. CS come out before you can pot in most cases, so you are either dodging the hits in the 3 hit string or (in most cases) taking the hits and hope it doesn't leave you with 0 hp. All chance either way. As the pike may critical all 3 hits, maybe 1, maybe he misses 2 times, maybe you block 2/3....that's my point. Might as well roll a dice every time a pike performs CS.

KushAndOrangeJuice
July 27th, 2010, 12:45 PM
That's the thing. They WOULDNT miss. They have 20 levels on you, both being 11X. They would just rape your face. =/

Viseris
July 27th, 2010, 12:49 PM
That's the thing. They WOULDNT miss. They have 20 levels on you, both being 11X. They would just rape your face. =/

What your point? This is the archer's thread. So stop spamming and stay on topic.

Pikes can't kill if they can't reach anyone. That's the advantage of archers and atalanta's.

ed teh gar
July 27th, 2010, 01:53 PM
What your point? This is the archer's thread. So stop spamming and stay on topic.

Pikes can't kill if they can't reach anyone. That's the advantage of archers and atalanta's.

Whats your point. This an archer thread dont bring up stuff about ata.

They dont care about what ata does they just wanna know about archer.

And again you keep bringing up pike pitiful attack rating.

a 102 pike and 119 pike are gonna have at rat in the same neighboor hood.

Maybe give or take 40 or so due to age of spear and lv bonus from brace spear.

1 on 1 you against a pr0 archer low st you will die.

High st archers only gain a handful of abs which isnt gonna do much unless they can get a nice 200 hp boost or so to the point that abs plays in ( not gonna happen)

Viseris
July 27th, 2010, 01:57 PM
You're telling me, there is only 2 classes in the game. Archers and Pikes?

First off, I bring in atalanta's because they are the counter to ranged archers. If 500 agility archers are the counter's to pike's. Atalanta's are the counter to that. And at least armored archers can take some ranged hits if are caught off guard or charged by multiple attackers.

Bless Castle is not a 1on1 game, that's my point. Like so many people make it out to be. Often times you have to consider external factors like getting hit by a mage's distortion, slowed with frost jav or jumped by multiple attackers at once.

If people would age armor's to say...+15 they would see the immense difference that extra defense (and absorb as well) provides. Namely defense though (as that equates to 0 damage if you successfully defend against someone's attack).

ed teh gar
July 27th, 2010, 02:17 PM
Im responding to your claims.


However this is an archer thread. they dont care/want to know how an ata does better or can kill an archer. thats all irrelevant.

It doesnt matter if they are the counter or not. Thats irrelevant in this discussion.

I dont care if bc is 1 on 1 or a million in 1.

This isnt even a bc thread. This is just about high st vs low st archers.

If you cant actually discuss this in the correct setting why keep posting. Your going off on stuff the OP doesnt care about.

They want to know how a low st or hi st archer does it pt. Not if an ata build is better and can kill one in bc. Thats not what they asked but oddly thats what you answered.

Anyway until you have actual archer exp lvling and playing at high levels please dont post. Your just confusing people and giving them bad advice.

Viseris
July 27th, 2010, 02:24 PM
You don't get it do you. I was giving positives for why strength archers are a valid build over low strength. Get it through your head.

PS shot 10 is not even that strong. It cannot 1 shot anyone. Having tanked hits from an archer 25 levels higher (low str) than me I think I know what I'm talking about.

ed teh gar
July 27th, 2010, 02:40 PM
You don't get it do you. I was giving positives for why strength archers are a valid build over low strength. Get it through your head.

PS shot 10 is not even that strong. It cannot 1 shot anyone. Having tanked hits from an archer 25 levels higher (low str) than me I think I know what I'm talking about.


Nope. You still dont. But nice try.

predone13
July 27th, 2010, 03:05 PM
You don't get it do you. I was giving positives for why strength archers are a valid build over low strength. Get it through your head.

PS shot 10 is not even that strong. It cannot 1 shot anyone. Having tanked hits from an archer 25 levels higher (low str) than me I think I know what I'm talking about.

Wrong lev 10 ps shot CAN oneshot you;) ive seen it done

Viseris
July 27th, 2010, 05:42 PM
Wrong lev 10 ps shot CAN oneshot you;) ive seen it done

Base HP is not a valid argument and using chance also is not valid. P Shot is not 1 shotting any 9x+ Char with 600+ HP, no matter what the archers agility is.

I'd Fear Avalance and wind arrow move as I'd be stun locked and couldn't move (due to its speed) than PShot where I can just easily use a pot to cover whatever damage I take. Granted the threat is greater to classes that don't have range. I still laugh at low str archers thinking they can get somewhere in bless castle without spamming atha's.

I think I fear Perforation as well, but that's due to that fact that it doesn't miss and has godly range.

ed teh gar
July 27th, 2010, 05:44 PM
ive seen phoe shot 1 shot a fighter 9x before. so it can happen yes.


And a fighter has more hp then you do.

Viseris
July 27th, 2010, 05:54 PM
And a fighter has more hp then you do.

You don't really know my HP :XD: But also, fighter has no evade and probably had his shield down, during that example you gave me.

Bump: In most games, players/classes with the right balance of HP and power do the best in PVP, not glass cannons.

ed teh gar
July 27th, 2010, 09:18 PM
95+ fighter can have close to 800 if not more max hp.

No way your ata gets close to that without dev gemming everything and having 100+ points into health.

90 ata with base hp and a 40 gem shield has 495. You would have ti pump 100+ to make up that 300 difference.


But whats the point of a build that can only tank others in bc. Losing 100+ points ( most likely from ag and st) you will kill slower then a snail unless you stick to aoe s1 or ds. Seems boring to make a build that centers around tanking for 2 hours a week.


also dont bring up the att rat/def thing because i already proved that false (pikeman with 1358 att rat can easily kill someone with 2200+ def rat. it was an ata btw that had 750+ hp)

Zwe
July 27th, 2010, 09:51 PM
I'd Fear Avalance and wind arrow move as I'd be stun locked and couldn't move (due to its speed) than PShot where I can just easily use a pot to cover whatever damage I take.

Ehm... PS takes 3 times more dmg than WA and shots at the same speed.

XEfX
November 9th, 2010, 08:17 PM
As a str AS I have some experiences, but I have to clarify that I'm just sorting out some info.

Pure AS, know as agi AS, has higher atk pow than any other classes, but they also have lower def and abs, which make them easily kill under pack of strong monsters.

Str AS, on the other provide higher def and abs, but lower atk pow which means they need more time to kill monsters.

Str AS doesn't run as much as pure AS in training, hunting, or soding; in a way, it is really convenience not to carry too much pots with them.

If you believe atk is the best defense, then do not add more str.

SoundOfOcarina
January 13th, 2011, 05:52 AM
Long thread to read, anyway, it already too late for me, I has STR build.
That dying quicker while using less higher defenses seems incredible to me, PT fail.

Most bless archers (mid server) have high str to answer your question. It helps them evade (defend) more attacks and prevents being stun-locked by every attack.
ofc I can't compare and still low level, but it seems to me that when changing armor, I got less of those painful convulsion and shouts while trying to run away from opponents.
Anyway, I like better killing slower (i even stopped leveling perf cuz it's a waste of mana) and look like my level. I also like the idea to get full load of loot before leaving the spawn. I tho that I could tank a bit, but still need to play hit and run (thx to wolverine otherwise archer are really lame at solo).

MissBowJangles
January 18th, 2011, 01:25 PM
:confused:

This may help and it may not...

For what it's worth I made this quickly in ps just for my personal reference but maybe all can benefit.

Prior to santa I was 90str FMA hp40 dev mixed & couldn't solo Cursed Temple HS.
Since santa suit, I recently respec'd down to 80str for 80D gear and my cute shield.
Added a Celesto mix to my previous Dev mixed mirage bow lvl/1 which gave +7 +Crit +50hp along with my +13 Santa. Soloing & random spawns on top of me are no longer a mortal fear :'(

So with the blessing of a few gracious GM's & the north pole :XD:

...I have an 80hp boost with 331 Def & 16.2 Abs which with (bad 80A-D) gears brings my 2h TOTAL def/abs/hp to: a wopping 1073 Def/ 56Abs/363 Hp :D:eek:

Some have seen me soloing at 83 in s1/s2 HS and I love how fast I kill, I think it just depends how you play your ranged characters.

I hope I was helpful in some way! :awsum: Enjoy!!!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v519/Fsd3sixt_2/SantaArmorComparisons.jpg
:bump: