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CreamPuffs
July 14th, 2010, 04:36 AM
Whats better for an ata? Their hp seems kind of low. So at 9x, is it better to age or mix a shield? :confused:

dabbe67
July 14th, 2010, 11:28 AM
better mix it...

Chislev
July 14th, 2010, 11:36 AM
I prefer a mix, though i never use the devine formulas on them.

SelenisAaargh
July 14th, 2010, 01:44 PM
always always always 40hp mix shields!

we have HOV so we dont need to grab each block%.
youll need the hp more.

Viseris
July 14th, 2010, 03:16 PM
always always always 40hp mix shields!

we have HOV so we dont need to grab each block%.
youll need the hp more.

Debatable. I agree that a 40-mix shield is better than +1 to +9 aged shields, but its not better than a +10.

Chislev
July 14th, 2010, 08:35 PM
Yes, all beautiful about a +10 shield, but tell me: Can you age it up to +10 100% safe? No, you can't. So there is a risk of losing a shield, a lot of sheltoms and a couple hundred million golds in the process. I am sorry, but those are factors way too important like to miss them in the equation.

About the mix for HP, i never needed to add HP that way, but it depends on your build.

Viseris
July 14th, 2010, 11:04 PM
Yes, all beautiful about a +10 shield, but tell me: Can you age it up to +10 100% safe? No, you can't. So there is a risk of losing a shield, a lot of sheltoms and a couple hundred million golds in the process. I am sorry, but those are factors way too important like to miss them in the equation.


Same thing could be said about d-gem mix on weapons lol. Maybe they need the extra hp that way. Or the fact that adding another 60 attack rating on a jav is actually beneficial do to the lack of attack rating lvl bonus on the weapon. I advocate D-gem mix for hp on javs as an option.

SelenisAaargh
July 15th, 2010, 08:59 AM
Debatable. I agree that a 40-mix shield is better than +1 to +9 aged shields, but its not better than a +10.

my argument:
because we have HOV we have a higher chance to evade or block a hit.
but our combined evade/block rate is statistically calculated like this:

c = combined%
b = block%
e = evade%

c = b + e - b*e

because evade and block are independent events.

so for example if you have hov 8 with 26% evade and a shield with 23% block
your combined block/evade rate is 43.02% and not as one might think 49%.

now if you had aged your shield to +10 and had block 28% instead, your combined rate would actually only rise to 46.72%

so only a bonus of 3.7%!

thats 1 hit less every 27 attacks!

but if you 40hp mix your shield you gain a nice hp boost that might help to survive some dark guard crits in LOC or worse.
and even if youre trainng in an easy map, the higher hp will allow you to pot later and save money on reds.

basically we pay for our high chance of evading by a higher cost to effectively raise the combined rate of evasion

of course this argument is only valid from the viewpoint of efficiency.

if your shield and jav are both aged +10 or higher you really do look smexy :P

VeridianATA
July 15th, 2010, 10:45 AM
I have a set of both, that I use at different times...I have +9 jav and shield, and I also have hp mixed jav and shield. It's handy. :)

Chislev
July 15th, 2010, 11:57 AM
if your shield and jav are both aged +10 or higher you really do look smexy :P

Ewwww the thing i dislike the most about aging is that annoying color glow on them.

Anyways, with aged javelins we enter to another discussion, i wouldn't spend a coin into them since they don't increase AR, (should i remember i do NOT play an agi based build) and since high level javelins are the only primary weapon in the game without AR bonus, i just prefer to compensate for that, specially since a dev mix > than a +6 age, the extra cost and risk of going past that age is not worth it.

I honestly think that those things annot really be compared, they shouldn't; both are way too different things, with mix and a very low investment you can have a nicely upgraded weapon/shield/armor, but in order to substantially beat them with aging you have to go to high ages, which is not a tangible option unless you can reduce to zero the chances of failure and breaking, not to mention the awfully long maduration process for javelins.

Viseris
July 15th, 2010, 02:48 PM
Is Celesto Mix in KPT? I'd like to see that added someday.

Chislev
July 16th, 2010, 12:07 AM
Hard to say, some say it is already in KPT, other say it isn't, and since i don't speak korean i cannot check it myself haha. All i hope is when they add them they wont suck badly as happens to armor and shield devine formulas (weapon formulas could be better as well) but if they allow me to match a +8 age plus adding AR bonus i will be happy enough

SelenisAaargh
July 16th, 2010, 06:02 AM
I honestly think that those things annot really be compared, they shouldn't; both are way too different things, with mix and a very low investment you can have a nicely upgraded weapon/shield/armor, but in order to substantially beat them with aging you have to go to high ages, which is not a tangible option unless you can reduce to zero the chances of failure and breaking, not to mention the awfully long maduration process for javelins.

hmm i garee for all equip up to 80c

but IMO there is a certain funfactor connected with the chance of failure or deaging. it means you risked something if you have highly aged stuff :)
also aging 80d+ armors is really way superior to any mixing effects.

i dont understand how a bonus of 60 on a AR of 1600+ would effectively increase your chances of hitting or not?
honestly the last time i missed something was an IF at 85 in I2 :ehh:

and with the 40%+ critchance with vengeance, aging of javs is reduced to a matter of couple hours for +10 and higher :rolleyes:

Nnoitra
July 16th, 2010, 08:55 AM
Is Celesto Mix in KPT? I'd like to see that added someday.

Yes they have been added long ago.
Weapon mixes are pretty ****ty for melee and ranged chars, but the shieldmixes are really good. one mix adds 4% blk and 50hp i believe.
Just search the forum, i posted all the celestomixes long time ago

Bump:
hmm i garee for all equip up to 80c

but IMO there is a certain funfactor connected with the chance of failure or deaging. it means you risked something if you have highly aged stuff :)
also aging 80d+ armors is really way superior to any mixing effects.

i dont understand how a bonus of 60 on a AR of 1600+ would effectively increase your chances of hitting or not?
honestly the last time i missed something was an IF at 85 in I2 :ehh:

and with the 40%+ critchance with vengeance, aging of javs is reduced to a matter of couple hours for +10 and higher :rolleyes:

I also dont like hp mix on javs. your an agi based char, so you got plenty ar already. Id say age jav if its 80d and above, below that 20mp mix it, since the 4% crit also boosts your damage

Chislev
July 16th, 2010, 11:57 AM
Actually, no. You are an agi based char IF you do an agi based build. Besides that, it is the only way to reduce a bit the AR gap with archers, remember they have higher AGI reqs than atas, still bows does have AR bonus, while javelines don't, so it is not a matter of agi, it is a matter of badly designed weapons.

TP
July 18th, 2010, 02:17 PM
Learning alot of these kinds of posts =D
Thx guys ^^

Viseris
July 18th, 2010, 04:48 PM
Actually, no. You are an agi based char IF you do an agi based build. Besides that, it is the only way to reduce a bit the AR gap with archers, remember they have higher AGI reqs than atas, still bows does have AR bonus, while javelines don't, so it is not a matter of agi, it is a matter of badly designed weapons.

I still miss decently with Split Jav 10 having a 20% attack rating boost and around ~1400 base attack rating. If you test on the players in navisko, you can see that you can miss alot due to a player's defense stat. I don't like my attacks missing lol that equates to 0 damage.

Its most noticeable when you try to attack level 10x players when you are 9x, for example. HP Mix attack rating gained on Jav increases the effect of windy as well. So you can mix and match.

But then you say...If u don't have windy 10, where else do you put your points? Well haha...it depends if you have any points in vengeance or not :P

I'd say Twist Jav is an underrated skill for atalantas. You see...people complain about its poor damage in Bless Castle, but they are not using the skill correctly. First, at low levels, it should only really be used vs demon type monsters, or its a waste of mana.

Secondly, its the "most accurate" attack in the game. I think. For example, if you look at the attack rating modifier on Knight's grand cross lvl 10, its at 80%. That means when they attack using the skill its like they have ~1800 attack rating if there attack rating is around 1000 base.

Let's say you have ~1500 attack rating with windy as a level 95 ata. When you attack with vengeance, you have 1500 attack rating. When you attack with split jav 10, you have 1800 attack rating, and when you attack with Twist Jav 10, you have...holy cow....3330 ATTACK RATING !

Thats almost like Archer's with scout hawk level attack rating. What that means is, you will hardly ever output 0 damage no matter what you are attacking, be it mokova or a crazy mech with 2500 defense lol.

Oh yeah...x-rage and storm jav NEVER miss haha...that's why I even use those as attacks in Bless. Thing is, they don't crit, nor do they work with force damage. Oh yeah...lightning jav doesn't miss either lol...but x-rage does more damage, atleast to non-undead since it doesn't work with force damage nor does it crit.

On second thought, I haven't really tested lightning jav damage with forces, but it has weird properties in the first place. Typically, its damage is low vs. non undead.

Bump: Wind Arrow is an attack that never misses for archers at least according to Ept1.blogspot. So yeah, archers don't have a problem hitting things, ata's do. Kind of my point with this discussion.

Chislev
July 18th, 2010, 07:50 PM
Hmmm actually windy does miss, but the animation always show as hitting, the only way to know for sure is paying attention to the health bar.

Still in the old forums i remember when i asked in suggestions to rebalance javelins because of their lack of AR bonus, someone had the nerve to say "get windy to 10", but why should anybody be forced to max out a skill they don't want because of a design failure? I am not very fond to use windy all the time, it is like sometimes i seem to "feel" my character doing lesser damage and way lesser criticals when using windy, it happened to me so many times that i ended up almost forgetting its very existance.

Now i have to ask the same again; why should anybody be forced to raise one skill in order to compensate a game design flaw?

Hmm thunder javelin is a very nice skill, again, for those who know how to use it, it is possible to make a great asset off this skill. I had twisted javelin maxed out on an old build, i must say it was great to quickly dispatch some bosses, but it was even quicker at getting rid of your whole reserves of mana and stamina pots as well lol Still a quite nice skill.

Uhm. something is unclear for me here: what does vengeance and windy to do with each other skill points wise? One use SP the other use EP, totally different stuff.

I believe that all and every skill has chances to miss, but some of them just don't have the animation for when they do (this wouldn't surprise me at all, this game has always been missing parts). I always pay a lot of attention at the enemies health bar and many many times i see that the attack "hit" the opponent but its health bar didn't move, that for me is a missed shot no matter if the animation showed it as hitting.

SelenisAaargh
July 20th, 2010, 09:46 AM
Well Chislev this kind of discussion is only of any point if a game is a) in a developement stage and b) developers listen to users...

you see the problem we have here ;)

All PT players have ever done was adjusting to this collection of bugs, workarounds, missing parts, bad support and sometimes good design ideas we call Pristontale.

I personally dont really mind missing some hits... we surely hit more than melee chars, thats enough for me.

Also you missed one important point about Windy: the added Range!
I really like to have this extra time for hit&run when hunting.

With Windy and Vengeance 10 we do outrange archers (even DGs) and valento :D

Chislev
July 20th, 2010, 12:18 PM
Yep, indeed you are right.

I didn't forget about windy's extra range (i'm not 100% sure right now, but i believe archer's perforation beats windy's extra range). That range bonus is great and it's the very reason i use that skill (even having it at low level) for training, because windy + storm javelin rocks for massive killing :D

As per the design flaws, we can't do anything about them, but we still can have them present in our minds ;)