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FlamingFarts
March 6th, 2014, 05:37 PM
Don't.. turn it.. into Pay to Win. Seriously.

It's fine to have items such as
- Premium package (Consider this as a monthly fee)
- decos, but without any stats
- summoning / teleports (for the lazy to run people)
- chakra purge.. mastery purge
etc. Items that do not really give any advantage over damage / attributes on characters

This is the reason i cant play anymore this game even though i love it so much (and many other friends of mine). Most of people who have small budget, cant compete with people with large budget. I know, life is not always fair, but this is only damaging the game.

A player who has a budget of 20$-30$ shouldn't be in disadvantage with a player who has budget of 200$. Otherwise, he can as well play one of the P2P games, and with 15$ can get all it needs.

I Can go through very successful F2P games who managed to keep their item mall build with only cosmetic items (not even something like premium), but probably i can't talk here about other games, and even if i could i wouldn't since i want all people to play 9D :).

This is about the item mall.

Something else that bothers me and i would not like to see it happening here as well..
Some events bring nice items which, might be permanent sometimes. After the end of the event, players who managed to get those items, will be probably always have the advantage, leaving people who might had a break during the event (or had.. exams.. or or, for some reason they couldn't play) in disadvantage. Then those people in disadvantage, feeling that they cant catch up, they will be less interesting on playing the game.

So please be careful with what you give out with the events.

Some people might think... that i think too much, or i am too much into competition. Yes, i love competition, if i wouldn't i should stick to single player games. And i believe many 9D players love competition.

And last thing.
This game has 4 classes (+ 1 more vagabond), and 6 clans. I hope you don't expect us to play only 1 char to level cap! So far, all the exp/skill rates provided by previous publisher, had in their mind that we don't want to get 2nd or 3rd char on lvl cap. Probably to force us buy more exp cards. Fine. But even with the exp cards was almost impossible unless you do nothing else in your life than grinding. :)

So yea... don't be scared to give good exp rates. Players will take the advantage to explore more classes/roles. In the long run you will have more happy players because they will not get bored grinding or pvping with only one/two chars.


I hope my points make sense to you guys.

Thanks.

Araan
March 7th, 2014, 01:14 AM
Hmm. I keep hearing about "balance between donators and non-donators". That sounds cool but there's an unfortunate news: there cannot be a balance between them. It's impossible. Why should a donator be on a non-donator's level anyway? Then what's the point in donating?
People donate in order to gain advantages in the game.
Item mall was build in for that kind of purpose. This game has always been an item mall based p2w, team-based, gear-based game but some people just can't understand this.
So if a non-donator was given everything that a donator gets (for real currency), why would the donator keep donating and not get it for free just like a non-donator?
However things can get a little better for non-donators if you make all items tradable from the item mall. That's still not balance but it surely helps.

BizaRRe123
March 7th, 2014, 01:20 AM
also dont put banners in IM ...its the worst thing you can do

FlamingFarts
March 7th, 2014, 01:20 AM
Who donate in game should get something more.

Problem is, the more money you spend, the more geared/strong your character is. There should be a limit to how much advantage your character can get.

That's why i said Premium is fine and absolutely perfect. But from that point onwards, should be on luxury/cosmetic items.

Personally i will not bother spend a cent if i know that i will need to keep spending in order to catch up on others.

Araan
March 7th, 2014, 01:23 AM
Who donate in game should get something more.

Problem is, the more money you spend, the more geared/strong your character is. There should be a limit to how much advantage your character can get.

That's why i said Premium is fine and absolutely perfect. But from that point onwards, should be on luxury/cosmetic items.

Personally i will not bother spend a cent if i know that i will need to keep spending in order to catch up on others.

Hmm I got your point now. And yeah I agree with that.
But I guess this company will need money income too, so i doubt they'd limit donators in any ways, though.

BizaRRe123
March 7th, 2014, 01:26 AM
Who donate in game should get something more.

Problem is, the more money you spend, the more geared/strong your character is. There should be a limit to how much advantage your character can get.

That's why i said Premium is fine and absolutely perfect. But from that point onwards, should be on luxury/cosmetic items.

Personally i will not bother spend a cent if i know that i will need to keep spending in order to catch up on others.

actually back on acclaim days there werent such a big diffrence between donators and non-donators.....untill they brought the phoenix banners
so as we got more capped gear, the difference between donators and non-donators its increasing

RainbowTubeSocks
March 7th, 2014, 01:31 AM
The only move that'll balance things between donators and non-donators will be making IM items trade-able. A little nerf towards certain items, and that's really all you can do.

AndreasdemeW20I
March 7th, 2014, 06:32 AM
I have to say i agree with the idea of FlamingFarts. It could also be a P2P game with only cosmetic items in the mall or as mentioned on another reply, some of the items in the item mall, that provide advantages to donators and leave non-donators out, should be tradeable.

Also, if 9D will include LL content, be aware of abusers. Plenty of people who know how to abuse some vulnerabilities, mask up, enter LL, do what they do (Global cooldown hack or no effects like para can affect your character) they are in combat all the time as they aoe or hit you in order not to reveal their identify(Note that if you invite someone in LL, even if he is in party or not, you can see who he is; but if wearing a mask, don't even bother). My personal opinion is that the best thing that can be achieved for LL map is be able to view the players name just like in other maps.

ShapeShift3R
March 7th, 2014, 06:47 AM
I agree with AndreasdemeW20I, LL map is kinda tricky.If some people manage to exploit bugs and/or use some short of hacks its really difficult to determine the name of the character responsible for the activities...Hopefully this server wont become G1 nightmare all over again.

Other than those items that FlammingFarts mentioned above, should be accessed by both donators and non donators.

BloodStainedSword
March 8th, 2014, 02:11 AM
Seems that some people around here never heard or played online games such as SMITE,Age of Wulin, C9, Tera, Forge ... That's the perfect model for f2p online games...

ShapeShift3R
March 8th, 2014, 03:53 AM
I have played Age of Wulin, its "Item Mall" works pretty well to be honest.

Jamie9d
March 8th, 2014, 01:05 PM
The sad but definitive truth, you physically cannot balance the item mall when the items physically impact the players gameplay. Models such as League of Legends, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Tera, Age of Wu, are not compatible with the micro transaction model in 9dragons. Mostly if not all of the items are cosmetic and have no direct impact on the game play for the player, they add a layer of aesthetics that's it!

There will always be a divide between players who can afford to spend £200 and players who can afford to spend £20. If the item mall is reduced to aesthetic items, not many people are going to want to spend money on those items because they don't help them in-game. Why do you think you can purchase refinement packages, premium bonuses for specific days, trigrams, decos, etc..? It's because players want them because they make it easier for them to grind and gather resources to improve their gear.

You can't compare models from different MMO's or MOBA's because the games are entirely different and use much more up-to-date methods than the old traditional MMO mechanics that 9dragons relies heavily on. The age old debate which versus free against premium will always exist and unless the entire item mall is changed - causing a huge amount of problems for reliant item mall buyers who have used the item mall items since Acclaim will find out just how tough and challenging it can actually be. Nobody would spend money, the servers would be offline by the end of the month. The people who are happy spending hundreds of dollars every month are the ones who are ironically helping the rest of the 'free' players by keeping the server costs and other costs funded.

If everything was made free, people would argue to have it include a price. If everything was given a price, people would argue for it to be free. The argument is a never ending cycle that just increments backwards and forwards without resolve.

You're all forgetting that most publishers choose this game because they know the model for item mall works well and people are happy prepared to spend ludicrous amounts of money to get ahead. Will Suba be any different, after the last publishers, who knows?

FlamingFarts
March 8th, 2014, 01:43 PM
The sad but definitive truth, you physically cannot balance the item mall when the items physically impact the players gameplay. Models such as League of Legends, World of Warcraft, Guild Wars, Tera, Age of Wu, are not compatible with the micro transaction model in 9dragons. Mostly if not all of the items are cosmetic and have no direct impact on the game play for the player, they add a layer of aesthetics that's it!

There will always be a divide between players who can afford to spend £200 and players who can afford to spend £20. If the item mall is reduced to aesthetic items, not many people are going to want to spend money on those items because they don't help them in-game. Why do you think you can purchase refinement packages, premium bonuses for specific days, trigrams, decos, etc..? It's because players want them because they make it easier for them to grind and gather resources to improve their gear.

You can't compare models from different MMO's or MOBA's because the games are entirely different and use much more up-to-date methods than the old traditional MMO mechanics that 9dragons relies heavily on. The age old debate which versus free against premium will always exist and unless the entire item mall is changed - causing a huge amount of problems for reliant item mall buyers who have used the item mall items since Acclaim will find out just how tough and challenging it can actually be. Nobody would spend money, the servers would be offline by the end of the month. The people who are happy spending hundreds of dollars every month are the ones who are ironically helping the rest of the 'free' players by keeping the server costs and other costs funded.

If everything was made free, people would argue to have it include a price. If everything was given a price, people would argue for it to be free. The argument is a never ending cycle that just increments backwards and forwards without resolve.

You're all forgetting that most publishers choose this game because they know the model for item mall works well and people are happy prepared to spend ludicrous amounts of money to get ahead. Will Suba be any different, after the last publishers, who knows?

I'm sorry i have to disagree.

What is the reason behind the low exp rates? ---> Forcing people to buy exp cards ON TOP of the exp incr from premium package, which looks not enough
What is the reason behind the outdmg system? ---> Force people to buy decos, pills, trigrams so they will become competitive

9D used to be populated game, and this item model destroyed the game. Every publisher...
KEPT:
a. non-donators who don't care about PvP/End game gear, and they just like to relax on a point and click --> kill ---> to get 0.02%
b. people who don't bother spend 100-200$ per month.

While on the same time they lost the biggest part of the community which are players whose budget is 20$/month for an mmo.

This game CAN work without P2W items on mall. And i'm sure many of us are willing to pay up to 60$ for a 3-month premium (consider it as subscription), when item mall is CLEAN from other P2W items.

I'm also very sure that if Suba Games make a promise that they will not turn 9D into P2W, many players from GC will quit and come over here.

It's better to have 2000 players spending 20$/month each, than having 200 players spending 200$/month each

Jamie9d
March 8th, 2014, 01:56 PM
I'm sorry i have to disagree.

What is the reason behind the low exp rates? ---> Forcing people to buy exp cards ON TOP of the exp incr from premium package, which looks not enough
What is the reason behind the outdmg system? ---> Force people to buy decos, pills, trigrams so they will become competitive

9D used to be populated game, and this item model destroyed the game. Every publisher...
KEPT:
a. non-donators who don't care about PvP/End game gear, and they just like to relax on a point and click --> kill ---> to get 0.02%
b. people who don't bother spend 100-200$ per month.

While on the same time they lost the biggest part of the community which are players whose budget is 20$/month for an mmo.

This game CAN work without P2W items on mall. And i'm sure many of us are willing to pay up to 60$ for a 3-month premium (consider it as subscription), when item mall is CLEAN from other P2W items.

I'm also very sure that if Suba Games make a promise that they will not turn 9D into P2W, many players from GC will quit and come over here.

It's better to have 2000 players spending 20$/month each, than having 200 players spending 200$/month each


You either heavily misconstrued my point or you failed to comprehend my point entirely. You disagreed with reasons that have no correlation to my reply. You began your reply by mentioning how people are 'forced' to buy this and buy that when nobody is forced into anything. There is no coercion or extortion and people will buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it. I'm failing to see those points you made?

All I did was mention how people comparing other game models to this model are wrong because they are incompatible for many reasons. People are comparing games that never introduced items that affected the game play and not suddenly change that would be a shock to many 9dragon player's systems; possible for the worst.

Any game can work without spending money on it but isn't that usually the point for a publisher, to make a profit? Ask yourself this question, "If this game had no item mall, would any publisher pick it up?" I have my opinion to that answer but I'm pretty sure most people would share my opinion. This game will always use the 'pay2win' ideology and there is really nothing that can be done about that. A monthly or three month subscription exists regardless because people will spend more and more just to get ahead and that will always be the 9dragon community mentality.

You're welcome to your opinion but at the end of the day, the publishers will be looking to make money and knowing the history and willingness of players spending money in 9dragons, all I see is another publisher with another piggy bank emptied and waiting to be filled. Being a player since Acclaim has left me less than optimistic about the state of the game.

Norias22
March 8th, 2014, 02:18 PM
I hope but I think this game is always "p2w". So really hope ! Yeah new event and maybe different develop but p2w thats all:-)

FlamingFarts
March 8th, 2014, 02:28 PM
You either heavily misconstrued my point or you failed to comprehend my point entirely. You disagreed with reasons that have no correlation to my reply. You began your reply by mentioning how people are 'forced' to buy this and buy that when nobody is forced into anything. There is no coercion or extortion and people will buy what they want to buy when they want to buy it. I'm failing to see those points you made?

Want to be competitive? ---> go and buy premium. Hm.. still not. You have to rush and lvl up before someone monopolize bosses. ---> Buy exp cards. "Ok.. now im on same level with those guys. now what?" Oh wait... you are not yet competitive. ---> Buy deco, trigrams, pills.

It's either 'forcing' yes, or don't bother been competitive at all.


All I did was mention how people comparing other game models to this model are wrong because they are incompatible for many reasons. People are comparing games that never introduced items that affected the game play and not suddenly change that would be a shock to many 9dragon player's systems; possible for the worst.

If the only reason is that other games, never introduced P2W, and that for 9Dragons is too late now... I will just say, it's never too late. I Insist on my position that if Suba games don't make this game P2W there will be a lot of acclaims veterans who will return back in game. Suba has the ball, and should control it wisely from the beginning. I really don't get it why you think that it will be for worst. I have at least 10 people in my skype that used to play 9d with me who quit for one a simple reason "P2W game".


Any game can work without spending money on it but isn't that usually the point for a publisher, to make a profit? Ask yourself this question, "If this game had no item mall, would any publisher pick it up?" I have my opinion to that answer but I'm pretty sure most people would share my opinion. This game will always use the 'pay2win' ideology and there is really nothing that can be done about that. A monthly or three month subscription exists regardless because people will spend more and more just to get ahead and that will always be the 9dragon community mentality.

Are you telling me that, if the game has no P2W items in mall, many of the heavy spenders will quit, rather than getting back a huge batch of people? I Will repeat my self "It's better to have 2000 players spending 20$/month each, than having 200 players spending 200$/month each"


You're welcome to your opinion but at the end of the day, the publishers will be looking to make money and knowing the history and willingness of players spending money in 9dragons, all I see is another publisher with another piggy bank emptied and waiting to be filled. Being a player since Acclaim has left me less than optimistic about the state of the game.

The game is not destroyed by the mentality of those few players left spending hundreds of dollars per month. It is destroyed by the mentality of the publishers. Instead of looking at the horizon, of how to make money on the long run, their view only reaches up to their noses. They want the money right here, right now.

9Dragons NEEDS to build it's community again. It needs to win trust again, and this is Suba job right now. If they start by thinking of how to milk the cow faster, then yes.. they will also fail.

Norias22
March 8th, 2014, 02:33 PM
I am sure every single player who like this game now or the past, and know beta, come. This is the time now. Build a new better and long time period game.

I HOPE !;)

RainbowTubeSocks
March 8th, 2014, 02:34 PM
You guys do realize that you can trade IM items, right? No one has to spend anything. It comes down to what version of 9D we'll be playing, and what they decide to put in the IM.

Norias22
March 8th, 2014, 02:37 PM
Just dont put item mall 4 slot decos pls :mad: and 2 slot too.

FuriaAlba
March 8th, 2014, 03:27 PM
You guys do realize that you can trade IM items, right? No one has to spend anything. It comes down to what version of 9D we'll be playing, and what they decide to put in the IM.

You do realize that even by buying items from other players you losse out too? Cause in 9Dragons you buy gamble material and people sell them expensive like they did on US version (remember 200 mil a scale on US? Or 150 mil a blue box?). And only few get lucky on first few tries to get something, rest get nothing special.

Either way to much IM based situations make this game not wortwhile in a long run for most players hence US version never had to many players that started and continued to play (specially players that don't spend at all).

Norias22
March 8th, 2014, 03:34 PM
Yep this is the most hard thing. Because need IM and balance too.

Neozenha04Ha8tL
March 8th, 2014, 06:06 PM
This was one of the first MMO I fell in love with.
The style, the cool combat combos really drew my attraction to the game.

I really do hope that subagames can keep this game up to date, keep it as clean as possible away from botters / hackers, and not have a p2w factor or this game will die fast.

Obviously advantages gives people to reason to buy stuff and this makes the company have some profit but it does definitely damage the game. This is why F2P MMORPG genre is "dying" in a way as most games are just sliding towards the P2W method to gain money from the game and obviously nobody wants to play a game where you're getting rekt by those who spend **** tons on MMORPGs.

But hey, all we can do is wait and see how subagames approaches this, play the CB and see what's up.

Zleep
March 8th, 2014, 07:56 PM
Didn't read to much of this but from my experience in some of their other games Suba doesn't milk there games or go heavy on the P2W and their prices are usually quite cheaper than their competitors. In their newest game surprisingly they were taking out features that were designed to milk money from their players.

Btw chances are your game will end up on Steam with Suba, so there will likely be more players than the GC version overtime.

Aklame
March 8th, 2014, 09:57 PM
If they can get this game on steam it will be much more populated.

Some of my friends whom wouldn't normally consider downloading 9d might see me playing it on steam, and give it a try.

FlamingFarts
March 9th, 2014, 01:34 AM
9Dragons.. making it to steam.. that would be amazing

BloodStainedSword
March 9th, 2014, 01:39 AM
I doubt that that will happen, but if 9D goes to stream we'll definitely notice the wave of new players coming.

Zleep
March 9th, 2014, 01:39 AM
Maybe they'll show some love for you guys like Lucent Heart and give you guys an opening event like this haha
https://forum.subagames.com/showthread.php?t=61924

I'm sure they'll get it on Steam if enough people are interested just be sure to invite your friends, get them to vote, etc etc.

Hiei9d
March 10th, 2014, 02:35 PM
Any Staff member reading this ?

FlamingFarts
March 14th, 2014, 02:39 PM
Any Staff member reading this ?

I hope so ... so far it looks like its ignored :P

OswaldoLafPd8WF
March 14th, 2014, 05:53 PM
This was one of the first MMO I fell in love with.
The style, the cool combat combos really drew my attraction to the game.

I really do hope that subagames can keep this game up to date, keep it as clean as possible away from botters / hackers, and not have a p2w factor or this game will die fast.

Obviously advantages gives people to reason to buy stuff and this makes the company have some profit but it does definitely damage the game. This is why F2P MMORPG genre is "dying" in a way as most games are just sliding towards the P2W method to gain money from the game and obviously nobody wants to play a game where you're getting rekt by those who spend **** tons on MMORPGs.

But hey, all we can do is wait and see how subagames approaches this, play the CB and see what's up.

Last time I checked the f2p model in mmorpgs was flourishing and the one being doubted was the p2p. Did I take the wrong UFO to the wrong planet?

FlamingFarts
March 16th, 2014, 03:11 PM
Last time I checked the f2p model in mmorpgs was flourishing and the one being doubted was the p2p. Did I take the wrong UFO to the wrong planet?

F2P model works just fine, as long as the publisher doesn't get greedy.

Get greedy ---> Gap between 20$ donators and 200$ donators gets big ---> 20$ donators find no reason spending even those 20$ -----> 20$ donators quit ---> Which means the game loses big part of community ---> Game slowly dies

Kkid
March 16th, 2014, 03:16 PM
Any Staff member reading this ?

Yes. And GM's have also seen this thread.

FlamingFarts
March 16th, 2014, 04:03 PM
Yes. And GM's have also seen this thread.

At least some word.

Thank you Kkid.

If you want to pass one important message other than the content of this thread to GMs is : win 9D players trust back.

Jamie9d
March 16th, 2014, 04:12 PM
At least some word.

Thank you Kkid.

If you want to pass one important message other than the content of this thread to GMs is : win 9D players trust back.

It's going to take a lot of work and not just from the publisher, we've also got to work hard to build a trust both ways.

Kkid
March 16th, 2014, 04:30 PM
What I tell players who are from different publishers is... we are not the previous publisher. We are a completely different company. Things that have been done or haven't been done by the previous publisher may be completely different here.

I am not just someone who was hired to make sure you all stay happy. I've been a player here since the companies conception in 2008, was hired as a player and have played many many other MMO's, and so have our GM's. So please trust me when I say I will try my best to make sure the most important issues and fixes that the players want presented will be given the attention they need.

a happy community = a happy publisher

FlamingFarts
March 23rd, 2014, 03:02 AM
What I tell players who are from different publishers is... we are not the previous publisher. We are a completely different company. Things that have been done or haven't been done by the previous publisher may be completely different here.

I am not just someone who was hired to make sure you all stay happy. I've been a player here since the companies conception in 2008, was hired as a player and have played many many other MMO's, and so have our GM's. So please trust me when I say I will try my best to make sure the most important issues and fixes that the players want presented will be given the attention they need.

a happy community = a happy publisher

Many payers have expressed their feelings about some item mall items, but Deimos came in and said that those items will be part of item mall. Example, Blue boxes (gambling item), that gives you powerful items.

How do you explain this?

Either GM Deimos didn't read forums, or he doesn't trust the players.

9D Forums are loaded with suggestions, and it would be really really good if he take few hours to read them.
This is all about making a good start in OB.

I might sound mad, or like yelling. Maybe i am, maybe i'm not. Sure thing is my posts tend to be more aggressive compared to my first posts in this forums. I personally feel like GM is not one team with the players. I just can't see this. And the longer this is going on with constructive posts getting ignored, the more people will leave, the more people will get angry.

Respect brings respect.

Jedaii
March 23rd, 2014, 07:21 AM
What I tell players who are from different publishers is... we are not the previous publisher. We are a completely different company. Things that have been done or haven't been done by the previous publisher may be completely different here.

I am not just someone who was hired to make sure you all stay happy. I've been a player here since the companies conception in 2008, was hired as a player and have played many many other MMO's, and so have our GM's. So please trust me when I say I will try my best to make sure the most important issues and fixes that the players want presented will be given the attention they need.

a happy community = a happy publisher

Well ,I sent Deimos a PM the day after I created an account; to date, it has not been read :D

Araan
March 23rd, 2014, 07:37 AM
Hurry up with the CBT please.

Ihgyug2
March 23rd, 2014, 07:39 AM
yeah hurry up

Jamie9d
March 23rd, 2014, 07:57 AM
Many payers have expressed their feelings about some item mall items, but Deimos came in and said that those items will be part of item mall. Example, Blue boxes (gambling item), that gives you powerful items.

How do you explain this?

Either GM Deimos didn't read forums, or he doesn't trust the players.

9D Forums are loaded with suggestions, and it would be really really good if he take few hours to read them.
This is all about making a good start in OB.

I might sound mad, or like yelling. Maybe i am, maybe i'm not. Sure thing is my posts tend to be more aggressive compared to my first posts in this forums. I personally feel like GM is not one team with the players. I just can't see this. And the longer this is going on with constructive posts getting ignored, the more people will leave, the more people will get angry.

Respect brings respect.

It's worth noting that Deimos is only a GM. I don't think he has that much control over what content is added or removed, that would lie within the publishers and the developers. His decisions have been some what callous but what do you expect for a GM who takes on a broken and abusive community with little experience of the game himself. I would give him some credit for at least agreeing to take on the role of GM here - it isn't going to be anything near easy.

Deimos and Kkid both read the forums and actively reply to your PM's so they do actually read what is happening but not necessarily replying to what is happening. I don't think Deimos will have the final decision and I'm sure within a reasonable amount, the staff will ask us about the content we would like when the time is near and there are more hands on to help. Deimos is a single GM trying to keep a community of players happy whilst doing his best to correct the problems he made.

I don't like the new publisher yet and I certainly don't trust them, not until they prove themselves trustworthy and loyal to the players. I do respect them and the publishers for resurrecting this game from the ashes. I don't know much longer the resurrection will last but we'll see that road when it is visible.

FlamingFarts
March 23rd, 2014, 09:30 AM
It's worth noting that Deimos is only a GM. I don't think he has that much control over what content is added or removed, that would lie within the publishers and the developers. His decisions have been some what callous but what do you expect for a GM who takes on a broken and abusive community with little experience of the game himself. I would give him some credit for at least agreeing to take on the role of GM here - it isn't going to be anything near easy.

Deimos and Kkid both read the forums and actively reply to your PM's so they do actually read what is happening but not necessarily replying to what is happening. I don't think Deimos will have the final decision and I'm sure within a reasonable amount, the staff will ask us about the content we would like when the time is near and there are more hands on to help. Deimos is a single GM trying to keep a community of players happy whilst doing his best to correct the problems he made.

I don't like the new publisher yet and I certainly don't trust them, not until they prove themselves trustworthy and loyal to the players. I do respect them and the publishers for resurrecting this game from the ashes. I don't know much longer the resurrection will last but we'll see that road when it is visible.

Honestly.. i do believe that publisher/GMs who don't listen to players are not worth to bother with their games.

So far.. i cant say this publisher listens to players. Example are the many posts asking for P2W items to be removed if they want to have a decent 9D version, but what do we see? Deimos said they are going to keep them.


Now answer me about this... what is the point when he comes in the "welcome to 9Dragons" thread and asking players to point him P2W items from GC ?


For those who play on the GC version, are there any items in the cash shop that you feel make the game P2W?

And then, he points out that the most P2W item will remain in this version?

How do i see it ? throwing dust in our eyes.

Araan
March 23rd, 2014, 09:52 AM
Nobody gives a sh1t about non-donators. Why can't you guys understand that? Non-donators are only guests in 9Dragons. Donations are vital to keep the server alive on the other hand those who put in money should certainly be overpowered over those who never even donated a penny. Please stop whining about oh non-donators are playing too please try to make a balance. NO! No. No. F uck non-donators, F uck those who want balance because life's a b1tch, so is this game. You find this game unfair? Quit playing then. Go play some lego with your little brother but of course playing lego with a kid is unfair too because you won't let him build better stuff than you do because you're physically stronger than he is so you'll try to destroy his sh1t when you realize your sh1t compared to his sh1t is sh1t. F uck you. Non-donators F uck you.

That's my opinion. What's yours?

Ihgyug2
March 23rd, 2014, 12:09 PM
Nobody gives a sh1t about non-donators. Why can't you guys understand that? Non-donators are only guests in 9Dragons. Donations are vital to keep the server alive on the other hand those who put in money should certainly be overpowered over those who never even donated a penny. Please stop whining about oh non-donators are playing too please try to make a balance. NO! No. No. F uck non-donators, F uck those who want balance because life's a b1tch, so is this game. You find this game unfair? Quit playing then. Go play some lego with your little brother but of course playing lego with a kid is unfair too because you won't let him build better stuff than you do because you're physically stronger than he is so you'll try to destroy his sh1t when you realize your sh1t compared to his sh1t is sh1t. F uck you. Non-donators F uck you.

That's my opinion. What's yours?

hahahahaha xDDD

FlamingFarts
March 23rd, 2014, 03:01 PM
Nobody gives a sh1t about non-donators. Why can't you guys understand that? Non-donators are only guests in 9Dragons. Donations are vital to keep the server alive on the other hand those who put in money should certainly be overpowered over those who never even donated a penny. Please stop whining about oh non-donators are playing too please try to make a balance. NO! No. No. F uck non-donators, F uck those who want balance because life's a b1tch, so is this game. You find this game unfair? Quit playing then. Go play some lego with your little brother but of course playing lego with a kid is unfair too because you won't let him build better stuff than you do because you're physically stronger than he is so you'll try to destroy his sh1t when you realize your sh1t compared to his sh1t is sh1t. F uck you. Non-donators F uck you.

That's my opinion. What's yours?

That's too many F words over there :)

My opinion is that you should start worrying about how you behave like that....

Anyway... on topic now!

We never said that donators should have no advantage over not-donators. We even pointed out that premium should be in item mall.

But, donators who can afford 20-30$ should have same advantages just as donators with 100-200$ per month. Otherwise the 20-30$ donator can just give up and go play some other mmo, which is P2P, and with only 12-15$ can have whatever everyone else has.

If they continue this way, those people who spend 100-200$ will play alone the game... against non-donators who don't give a sh1t about competition. (Current situation in GC)

Jedaii
March 23rd, 2014, 03:32 PM
I am not sure what you meant by people who pay $30 should have same advantage as those who spend up to $100. First of all, there is no way on earth that is even remotely possible, unless people are only buying epithets exchange, chakra purges, guild passes and lion's roars.

Secondly, money doesn't buy you power in this game; it only buys you chance. You can increase your luck by increasing the amount of money you spend; it's that simple.

People keep saying don't make the game P2W. Do we even understand the P2W aspect of the game? The only way to not make this game P2W is to remove banners, all refinement ( and items incidental to the refining processes) and OP decos. However, these items cannot be taken out of the game, and as such the game will be P2W by default.

Subagames can only mitigate that inherent flaw by mking sure that refinement rates are reasonable, and implimenting the banner collection like that of KR servers. Put stated decos for sale on Peddlers in clan base with noob stats and players can purchase and upgrade them in hefei.

Jamie9d
March 23rd, 2014, 04:16 PM
I am not sure what you meant by people who pay $30 should have same advantage as those who spend up to $100. First of all, there is no way on earth that is even remotely possible, unless people are only buying epithets exchange, chakra purges, guild passes and lion's roars.

Secondly, money doesn't buy you power in this game; it only buys you chance. You can increase your luck by increasing the amount of money you spend; it's that simple.

People keep saying don't make the game P2W. Do we even understand the P2W aspect of the game? The only way to not make this game P2W is to remove banners, all refinement ( and items incidental to the refining processes) and OP decos. However, these items cannot be taken out of the game, and as such the game will be P2W by default.

Subagames can only mitigate that inherent flaw by mking sure that refinement rates are reasonable, and implimenting the banner collection like that of KR servers. Put stated decos for sale on Peddlers in clan base with noob stats and players can purchase and upgrade them in hefei.

Exp cards, drop cards, premiums, kg/em, deco, boxes, jades/trigrams, dungeon passes, pills, orbs. runes, panacea, refinement packages, refinement resources - if that doesn't give you power, tell me what does?

FlamingFarts
March 23rd, 2014, 05:11 PM
Exp cards, drop cards, premiums, kg/em, deco, boxes, jades/trigrams, dungeon passes, pills, orbs. runes, panacea, refinement packages, refinement resources - if that doesn't give you power, tell me what does?

Well said. And still, we are trying to negotiate with publisher... and can accept items such as exp cards,premium.

But for gods sake ... no crazy stats decos .. banners / blood essences in item mall, trigrams.. etc

there are so many items that people who want luxury can have without getting too much power.

Jedaii
March 23rd, 2014, 05:25 PM
If those things give you power. I'd be the most powerful guy on GC because I bought all of those things that you mentioned. In the end, I was no more powerful than the person who didn't spend a dime.

BizaRRe123
March 24th, 2014, 12:58 AM
I am not sure what you meant by people who pay $30 should have same advantage as those who spend up to $100. First of all, there is no way on earth that is even remotely possible, unless people are only buying epithets exchange, chakra purges, guild passes and lion's roars.

this will never happen....cmon its like you want the poor ppl to live in big houses like the rich ones

FuriaAlba
March 24th, 2014, 01:44 AM
Considering that non spenders can buy the items from IM from other players makes them spenders in a way too, don't forget that on US most big spenders sold the gamble items that where from IM to make gold of non spenders to buy what they wanted and so dodging the gamble system on the backs of those that bought the items from them in the first place. I remember people selling tons of blue boxes and after that seeing them roar that they want to buy IM+14 weapons and +2 scroll and after that banners. So at least for this game they should consider what non spenders think/want cause at the end the big spenders will make their gear of the ones who actually uses the items that come from IM.

BizaRRe123
March 24th, 2014, 02:56 AM
Exp cards, drop cards, premiums, kg/em, deco, boxes, jades/trigrams, dungeon passes, pills, orbs. runes, panacea, refinement packages, refinement resources - if that doesn't give you power, tell me what does?

lets remove the IM and leave subagames to keep the servers alive with money from their pocket

Jamie9d
March 24th, 2014, 03:31 AM
lets remove the IM and leave subagames to keep the servers alive with money from their pocket

Is that your only reprehensible response? If so you really should begin reading the previous replies or perhaps even the entire thread rather than sniping away at the bits that make sense to you. You keep going with the same retort that these items justify their own existance because it helps the publishers pay without using their money.

Well done, you have literally made the biggest contradiction in this forum. Firstly my response was in correlation to someone's opinion stating that spending money in IM doesn't bring you power so I listed the potential power building items that could be bought with money. Secondly, the publishers will have a means of income to fund the server until the players decide to start buying items - a small amount of those purchases go towards the server and the rest to whatever expendable income is needed. Your mentality towards the subject sort of shows that you really have no comprehension of the thread and you should educate yourself before making pointless comments that have no weight in this discussion.

Back to the subject in hand: the publishers haven't played their cards on the table or made themselves out to be anything good or bad. We're new to each other so we really can't start passing judgement or attack the publishers with the same arguments constantly. Everyone is aware of the bugs and their problems, the blue boxes and Deimos' response regarding blue boxes. Until we know for absolutely sure what route the publisher is taking, all we can do is fire random assumptions.

BizaRRe123
March 24th, 2014, 06:35 AM
a game without op item in IM its an utopia
btw,since when panacea's give you "power" ?:p

Poootato
March 24th, 2014, 10:27 AM
Exp cards, drop cards, premiums, kg/em, deco, boxes, jades/trigrams, dungeon passes, pills, orbs. runes, panacea, refinement packages, refinement resources - if that doesn't give you power, tell me what does?

Exp cards give u power ? xD
Duuude ur so wrong ... Exp cards give u only x 2 exp ,meaning its like " a shortcut" for those who are lazy to lvl up with normal rates
Same goes for BE in IM ,if u buy BE u buy it beacause ur 2 lazy to farm on ur own

BizaRRe123
March 24th, 2014, 11:19 AM
also,what power gives you passes ?....like i said,screw the IM and leave subagames to maintain servers with money from their pocket

Poootato
March 24th, 2014, 11:35 AM
IM items are fair ,when they don't give u any advantage for buying them ,so if a non donator can get these items too then its ok.
If a donator can get items FASTER its still okay.
Its wrong when a donator can get item that non donator cant.

RedBeam
March 24th, 2014, 11:42 AM
also,what power gives you passes ?....like i said,screw the IM and leave subagames to maintain servers with money from their pocket

Why would they do that? Why would any business do that? Suba's goal, above all others, is to make a profit. Having Microtransactions allows them to profit off the Free to Play games they publish. That's how developers support a game with no subscription fee.

An item mall is not an inherently bad thing. Offering cosmetic costumes with zero stat benefits and certain leveling boosters is fine in my opinion. Why? Because they don't necessarily break the game. The only thing an exp booster does is give a player an increased rate at leveling up. However, you can achieve those same results without an exp booster. It simply requires you to grind longer. That's why those types of items are labeled as "convenience items". It's convenient to have them, but you won't completely fail at the game if you don't have them.

However, there is a fine line between what is generally acceptable in an IM and what is not acceptable. What ruined previous iterations of this game was the fact that you could purchase blatantly overpowered costumes in the IM, and essentially guaranteed success at the refinement station. Costumes with stats that were superior to anything you could find in game, and everybody running around with +12 and +13 crap. That is not acceptable. If you're going to add anything like that in an IM, you need to make sure there is an attainable equivalent in the game whether thru boss drops or thru crafting.

TL;DR Publishers need to make a profit off F2P games, otherwise they have no reason to host it. An IM is essential in helping them keep a F2P title online, but they need to take extreme care not to upset the community by adding game-breaking items in that IM. Previous publishers have failed at this, which is why this game has gone thru so many publishers over its lifetime.

FlamingFarts
March 24th, 2014, 01:54 PM
What that guy said ^^

Jamie9d
March 24th, 2014, 05:54 PM
Why would they do that? Why would any business do that? Suba's goal, above all others, is to make a profit. Having Microtransactions allows them to profit off the Free to Play games they publish. That's how developers support a game with no subscription fee.

An item mall is not an inherently bad thing. Offering cosmetic costumes with zero stat benefits and certain leveling boosters is fine in my opinion. Why? Because they don't necessarily break the game. The only thing an exp booster does is give a player an increased rate at leveling up. However, you can achieve those same results without an exp booster. It simply requires you to grind longer. That's why those types of items are labeled as "convenience items". It's convenient to have them, but you won't completely fail at the game if you don't have them.

However, there is a fine line between what is generally acceptable in an IM and what is not acceptable. What ruined previous iterations of this game was the fact that you could purchase blatantly overpowered costumes in the IM, and essentially guaranteed success at the refinement station. Costumes with stats that were superior to anything you could find in game, and everybody running around with +12 and +13 crap. That is not acceptable. If you're going to add anything like that in an IM, you need to make sure there is an attainable equivalent in the game whether thru boss drops or thru crafting.

TL;DR Publishers need to make a profit off F2P games, otherwise they have no reason to host it. An IM is essential in helping them keep a F2P title online, but they need to take extreme care not to upset the community by adding game-breaking items in that IM. Previous publishers have failed at this, which is why this game has gone thru so many publishers over its lifetime.


What they should have done is remove scales/tears for a start and just allow weapons to be refined without them breaking if the refinement isn't successful. The deco should just be a decorate skin without any additional bonuses other than bit of increased damage/health/speed.

That being said, another reason we went through a lot of publishers was largely due to the developers refusing to make any changes dispute the publishers pushing for change.

EternalSonata
March 24th, 2014, 05:56 PM
A publisher may sell whatever products that he wants in order to make profit. But if those items are almost needed to compete with other players because it give too much advantages, then it's a pay-to-win and the community pointed out that it would ruin the game like other publishers did.

Deimos stated that he doesn't want that either removing high in-game bonus stat like some decos and now the blue boxes (stupid lottery cash spending) since he has seen the disaster in the current CBT. Even though that is just words and there are things to improve in the IM, this is a good start.

BizaRRe123
March 25th, 2014, 01:11 AM
What they should have done is remove scales/tears for a start and just allow weapons to be refined without them breaking if the refinement isn't successful. The deco should just be a decorate skin without any additional bonuses other than bit of increased damage/health/speed.

That being said, another reason we went through a lot of publishers was largely due to the developers refusing to make any changes dispute the publishers pushing for change.

now scales/tears are bad too ? i never heard any1 complaining about them in so many years
wtf its wrong to protect your weapon ?:ehh:
now please stop with ideas like "remove scales,exp cards,panaceas,passez" and do something better for yourself

Jamie9d
March 25th, 2014, 03:57 AM
now scales/tears are bad too ? i never heard any1 complaining about them in so many years
wtf its wrong to protect your weapon ?:ehh:
now please stop with ideas like "remove scales,exp cards,panaceas,passez" and do something better for yourself

Your level of comprehension is tragic. I said remove scales and tears but don't let the weapon break when refinement fails. You dont read the reply, you see the parts that you comprehend and leech on them.

I am complaining but at least I read what people write.

BizaRRe123
March 25th, 2014, 04:39 AM
Your level of comprehension is tragic. I said remove scales and tears but don't let the weapon break when refinement fails. You dont read the reply, you see the parts that you comprehend and leech on them.

I am complaining but at least I read what people write.

another bad idea....you should stop with all of these fairy tail ideas because are getting worse post after post

Jedaii
March 25th, 2014, 06:28 AM
Why would they do that? Why would any business do that? Suba's goal, above all others, is to make a profit. Having Microtransactions allows them to profit off the Free to Play games they publish. That's how developers support a game with no subscription fee.

I believe he was being sarcastic. At least that is what I inferred from his comments. I supposed it was intended to suggest that since people want so many thyings removed from the item mall, Suba may as well be paying to host the game with their own money.


An item mall is not an inherently bad thing. Offering cosmetic costumes with zero stat benefits and certain leveling boosters is fine in my opinion. Why? Because they don't necessarily break the game. The only thing an exp booster does is give a player an increased rate at leveling up. However, you can achieve those same results without an exp booster. It simply requires you to grind longer. That's why those types of items are labeled as "convenience items". It's convenient to have them, but you won't completely fail at the game if you don't have them.

I never saw the item mall as a bad thing but over the years, 9Dragons item mall has moved away from been "incidental" to enjoying the game to being a MUST use, if you wish to compete successfully. A prime example was the introduction of Blue Dragon Boxes, in spite of protests from the community.


TL;DR Publishers need to make a profit off F2P games, otherwise they have no reason to host it. An IM is essential in helping them keep a F2P title online, but they need to take extreme care not to upset the community by adding game-breaking items in that IM. Previous publishers have failed at this, which is why this game has gone thru so many publishers over its lifetime.

I believe that sometimes in our zealousness, we tend to be irrational. Some arguments proffered are more suitable for a P2P title. The item mall is a necessary service in furtherance of publishing 9Dragons sucessfully. As you rightly put it, Suba is hosting the game with a view of profit.

While i would agree that the item mall should not make the subscribers to it, over-powered, I think it should give them some reasonable advantage, otherwise, what's the point?

Sercova
March 25th, 2014, 06:43 AM
Honestly, I have never understood why your weapon breaks if you fail a refinement. It's just extremely time wasting, I don't want to spend hours and hours farming BE etc only to have my best weapon disappear because i've failed to refine it. Who's idea was that?
I agree with Jamie that if you were to remove the ability for weapons to break and increased the refinement rates to a decent level there would be no need to have scales/tears/orbs.
You'd still be one lucky sob if you managed to get to the highest refinement but atleast you wouldn't have paid to get there and gained an unfair advantage over those who haven't paid.

BizaRRe123
March 25th, 2014, 06:57 AM
I believe he was being sarcastic. At least that is what I inferred from his comments. I supposed it was intended to suggest that since people want so many thyings removed from the item mall, Suba may as well be paying to host the game with their own money.

Thank you,finally some1 with brain who understand my comments


Honestly, I have never understood why your weapon breaks if you fail a refinement. It's just extremely time wasting, I don't want to spend hours and hours farming BE etc only to have my best weapon disappear because i've failed to refine it. Who's idea was that?
in life there are always situations with 50/50 win
also the game looks more realistic when you break the weap while you try to make it better
ps: on any mmorpg theres a chance to break your weap while you reff it

Sercova
March 25th, 2014, 08:11 AM
ps: on any mmorpg theres a chance to break your weap while you reff it

Name them please

EternalSonata
March 25th, 2014, 10:32 AM
Name them please

Most P2W game for teens that heavily rely on Item Mall like Ragnarok, Dragon Nest, Flyff, Trickster, ROHAN got this feature. And there are more out there.

Kkid
March 25th, 2014, 11:04 AM
Name them please

ACE Online
Priston Tale
Lucent Heart

All Suba titles. :)

Sercova
March 25th, 2014, 11:38 AM
Lol, I think this may be why I stick to games where my hard earned gear doesn't get destroyed XD

BizaRRe123
March 25th, 2014, 12:39 PM
Lol, I think this may be why I stick to games where my hard earned gear doesn't get destroyed XD

any respectable mmorpg its like that

Jamie9d
March 25th, 2014, 01:47 PM
ACE Online
Priston Tale
Lucent Heart

All Suba titles. :)

Flyff
Elder Scrolls Online

Those don't. All known and populated titles. The refinement resources via Item Mall were a pure and obvious way of earning extra income from players. Without those items, you really were putting everything on a single chance of failing to have to work for it all again. Imagine farming EOL just to lose it during refinement. Flyff uses moonstones and if you fail, you only fail - the weapon and levels stay intact. With ESO you can ult your gear using resources and those don't break.

Almost every single way of increasing the items in 9d requires use of the Item Mall. Clothes refinement, A&D, weapon refinement, weapon trading - they all entice items from the mall. There is no such thing as a 'respectable mmo' because every single mmo does it differently. A respectable mmo is an mmo that respects their players and understands how hard it can be to acquire items.

The ones defending the item mall are the ones who would be completely lost, powerless and clueless about the game without them. No op premium buffs, no trigrams or jades, no separators, scales/tears to help you. Why else would people be defending the item mall; don't use the excuse 'because suba would have to pay out of their pockets' when there are enough items in the item mall that would keep the server afloat.

The player population is really small so a decent dedicated server which doesn't cost as much as people think would handle our population without fault.

BizaRRe123
March 25th, 2014, 02:18 PM
The ones defending the item mall are the ones who would be completely lost, powerless and clueless about the game without them. No op premium buffs, no trigrams or jades, no separators, scales/tears to help you. Why else would people be defending the item mall; don't use the excuse 'because suba would have to pay out of their pockets' when there are enough items in the item mall that would keep the server afloat.
im defending everything from IM except op deco's/banners from boxes,asking for pazzes/panaces or exp cards to be removed its just stupid
also,i never spent a $ on this game and always i got prem and other sh1t,you just need to be smart
ps:giving as exemple some cr@ppy games to remove scales from IM just because you cant afford them isnt such a great idea
ps2:stop writting poems when you are posting something because none of us its reading them

Jedaii
March 25th, 2014, 02:23 PM
The ones defending the item mall are the ones who would be completely lost, powerless and clueless about the game without them. No op premium buffs, no trigrams or jades, no separators, scales/tears to help you. Why else would people be defending the item mall; don't use the excuse 'because suba would have to pay out of their pockets' when there are enough items in the item mall that would keep the server afloat.
.

I must respectfully disagree with you. Your position is not only partisan, it is unrealistic. As far as I can see, you want the game to run without an item mall and still be free-to-play. Even private servers are asking their players to "donate". I do not understand why you would take such an unreasonable stance.

To suggest that those who support the idea of an item mall, are those who are clueless about the game, is disingenuous. I would suggest to you that if you are such an expert on the game, then the alleged power that the item mall gives to "clueless" players, should not see you disadvantaged in anyway.

I think you are expecting Subagames to be miracle workers. Well, that's not going to happen. I would implore you to at least consider things from the point of view of the collective, rather than your own narrow view of the utopia, you think Suba can bring to 9Dragons.

There have always been people like yourself who refuse to spend on the game, and support the publisher, in continuing to host the games, while simultaneous, bashing those who are generous enough to ensure that the game stays free-to-play.

I was never a supporter of things that obviously created an imbalance, such as the blue dragon treasure boxes. But you have pretty much bashed every item mall goods, even separators. Aren't you aware that there are hermit weapons in game that has 3 slots?

BizaRRe123
March 25th, 2014, 02:34 PM
I think you are expecting Subagames to be miracle workers. Well, that's not going to happen. I would implore you to at least consider things from the point of view of the collective, rather than your own narrow view of the utopia, you think Suba can bring to 9Dragons.
you got a like for that

Kkid
March 25th, 2014, 09:39 PM
I mean we try to do our best. And although many players may see publishers and developers as evil companies who are only in it for the money...this is not all that true. Yes, these companies NEED to make a profit to stay alive, but if we were to pack the Item mall with content that only favored people spending massive amounts of cash, the game would die. Most of the staff and management here have and currently play MMO's and fully understand the arguments for and against Item Malls. Fortunately, we would rather work with the community to get a nice balance between Item Mall users and F2P users.

Araan
March 26th, 2014, 01:51 AM
I mean we try to do our best. And although many players may see publishers and developers as evil companies who are only in it for the money...this is not all that true. Yes, these companies NEED to make a profit to stay alive, but if we were to pack the Item mall with content that only favored people spending massive amounts of cash, the game would die. Most of the staff and management here have and currently play MMO's and fully understand the arguments for and against Item Malls. Fortunately, we would rather work with the community to get a nice balance between Item Mall users and F2P users.

You can't balance anything between donators and non-donators.

Dear GM/CM how long have you played 9Dragons? A week? Days? Hours? Please...
When I or veterans on this forum say things, they are true facts. We know 9Dragons better than you'll ever do in the following couple of years you're probly gonna host this game. You must listen to us otherwise you'll end up managing an empty server/community.

BizaRRe123
March 26th, 2014, 02:04 AM
Fortunately, we would rather work with the community to get a nice balance between Item Mall users and F2P users.
just remove blueboxes,op deco's and everything will be fine on IM

Jedaii
March 26th, 2014, 04:37 AM
I mean we try to do our best. And although many players may see publishers and developers as evil companies who are only in it for the money...this is not all that true. Yes, these companies NEED to make a profit to stay alive, but if we were to pack the Item mall with content that only favored people spending massive amounts of cash, the game would die. Most of the staff and management here have and currently play MMO's and fully understand the arguments for and against Item Malls. Fortunately, we would rather work with the community to get a nice balance between Item Mall users and F2P users.

Well, the Blue Dragon treasure boxes invited protests from the community when they were first introduced but the rationale for implimenting them was that they were also on the Koeran version.

As for decos, they are not as evil as people are making them out to be. The problem is that GC always introduced new decos with slightly different stats and say they are for a 'limited' time only. This was the justification for charging exorbitant prices for the 'limited' decos, only to have them reintroduced at some later time.

The game suddenly became more about who is rocking the latest deco and trigram than it was about actual game-play. As a result of that players (especially no-lifers, as they are infamously called) saw these decos as the grinch who stole their christmas. To further compound the problem, the clan deco patch that was supposed to bring some balance for non-IM users was changed significantly. Instead of being able to make the decos with in-game resources only, it was changed so that you HAD to buy stuff from the item mall and then play Russian Roulette to make a lucid deco, while they were simultaneously rolling out Noble Warrior deco in the item mall for $140.00.

The Lucid clan decos were supposed to be a God-sent for free players as this would see them on almost equal footing with IM decos that gave 40% damage on critical hit. But that balance was set aside and relegated to IM spenders.

Anyways, I personally with not support you if you have a generic item mall with only epithet exchange coupons, lions roars and non-stated decos. People who spend money must have an advantage and there is no two-sides to that argument. There are quite a few games that are advertised as free-to-play but you only have very limited acess to the game and will have to purchase a subscription if you want to continue. Read the reviews of Star War: Old republic or Wizard 101 and you will know what I am talking about.

Free-to-play is a fantasy that developers and publishers use to attrack players to their titles in this competitive gaming environment. Same thing going on with age of Wushu; you can play for free but those who subscribe will have more advantages. The idea is to make you get a taste of the game but limit how much you can accomplish as a free player, so that you must subscribe or buy from the item mall. It's the same reason why manufacturers advertise their probucts and give away free samples. It is not exactly free, those items are factored into the R&D cost of the product and will be apportioned accordingly.

This does not in any way preclude the publishers from trying to create a balance between those who spend and those who doesn't. However, the goal will always be to try and intreat everyone to spend. I hope that simple fact did not escape any of us.

Peace out.

Jamie9d
March 26th, 2014, 11:01 AM
I must respectfully disagree with you. Your position is not only partisan, it is unrealistic. As far as I can see, you want the game to run without an item mall and still be free-to-play. Even private servers are asking their players to "donate". I do not understand why you would take such an unreasonable stance.

To suggest that those who support the idea of an item mall, are those who are clueless about the game, is disingenuous. I would suggest to you that if you are such an expert on the game, then the alleged power that the item mall gives to "clueless" players, should not see you disadvantaged in anyway.

I think you are expecting Subagames to be miracle workers. Well, that's not going to happen. I would implore you to at least consider things from the point of view of the collective, rather than your own narrow view of the utopia, you think Suba can bring to 9Dragons.

There have always been people like yourself who refuse to spend on the game, and support the publisher, in continuing to host the games, while simultaneous, bashing those who are generous enough to ensure that the game stays free-to-play.

I was never a supporter of things that obviously created an imbalance, such as the blue dragon treasure boxes. But you have pretty much bashed every item mall goods, even separators. Aren't you aware that there are hermit weapons in game that has 3 slots?

That's absolutely fine and I respect you for your polite response. I know we all have different opinions but having a friendly debate is crucial to making any real progress. Perhaps I should start by pretty much contradicting most of my replies, especially if I made any misconstrued statements. I'm not physically against any item in the item mall; I understand fully that the item mall provides a sustainable income for publishers to maintain all expenses. No, I'm not against the item mall I just personally believe games run a lot smoother without them. I have spent money on items before, I'm not going to lie about it or feel shameful for using the resources available but I don't understand why some of the items are there.

I still stand by my opinion that those who frequently use the item mall don't fully understand the game or fully appreciate how difficult it can be for 'f2p players' to work hard to gain resources to only use them trying to increase their weapons or clothes to compete against the players who spend money to make that process much easier. Yes, my views on 'pw2 players' could indeed be labelled as disingenuous, mendacious or insincere but I will stand by that opinion regardless how wrong or inaccurate it might be. I personally don't understand or appreciate free players working really hard and putting endless hours into the game to only be penalized and given stipulations because someone decides to spend money on experience cards and drop cards to level and earn riches faster - I find that wrong and I'm fairly certain 'my narrow view on Utopia' is something Thomas More would have applauded. Slightly off topic but Thomas More was a phenomenal philosopher and humanist who shared views on equality and a simple way of life.

Can you please explain to me how 'people like myself' refuse to spend money but bash those who 'support' the publishers because a lot of us don't see why players should be able to essentially pay for their levels and riches? What is wrong with a premium buff, a bundle of cosmetic skins and some other light items that keep the balance between 'p2w' and 'f2p'? I stand by my decision when I state in my opinion, a lot of the items are completely and utterly unfair against free players and will always leave a huge disadvantage gap between those who spend and those who do not.

"An absolutely new idea is one of the rarest things known to man."

What is wrong with changing the item mall and making it more balanced, allowing players to earn those items in-game or removing the items that were added purely for extra profit. There are enough players who spend money on premiums and decos to more than comfortably keep the costs of the server funded. What is wrong with making a change, as a community coming together to reinvent the item mall in a way that works for everyone. There will be some disputes and some arguments but it is much better to fix the problem then to argue hypothesis and throw philosophical remarks into the fire.

I'm fully aware of what is in the item mall and there is a reason why I am bashing a majority of the items. They are unfair to new players which has always been a detriment to this game, we have always been reviewed negatively because of this and we have lost an abundance of players because of the poor decisions, the p2w aspect and the harsh realities this game has on new players.

My response is incredibly partisan and I stand by the party of 'p2w needs to finish'. We should be moving far into our new Utopia and not through the fourth circle through the Inferno.

FuriaAlba
March 26th, 2014, 03:24 PM
Actually a balance act would be that one could "farm" the coin to buy some of the essential Item Mall items (since here they are gamble material anyway).

Persoanlly I have nothing against the item mall as long as they can be farmed within game and the advantage of spenders is they can buy as many as they want compared to non spenders who have to spend time farming them.

Jamie9d
March 26th, 2014, 03:28 PM
Allowing players to farm a currency that can be used for item mall items would pretty much make it balanced. It would just take the player longer to farm but the choice would be there.

FuriaAlba
March 27th, 2014, 03:44 AM
Considering the fact they can't change the way the game is regarding item upgrades this would be the only option to reduce the p2w aspect even thou it will stay that way but not so dependant. Also rates regarding xp, skill and drop rate should be decided for when open beta starts and not changed to much with events cause out of experience I can say that they break the game as well as the item mall does. (look at US version)

BizaRRe123
March 27th, 2014, 04:23 AM
Considering the fact they can't change the way the game is regarding item upgrades this would be the only option to reduce the p2w aspect even thou it will stay that way but not so dependant. Also rates regarding xp, skill and drop rate should be decided for when open beta starts and not changed to much with events cause out of experience I can say that they break the game as well as the item mall does. (look at US version)

nobody will play on low rates

FuriaAlba
March 27th, 2014, 09:54 AM
Did I say low rates? They chose whatever rates they want and keep them that way without high rate changing events. As for no one will play on low rates guess you are wrong, since they launched closed beta plenty got 2nd role before they changed rates in anyway and they was low, as long as they keep advertising this version new people wont know what high rates actaully mean and so will play with what suba will give them regarding rates. High rates don't keep servers alive neither, look how full is US version even with 6x-7x events, almost a ghost town. Private server opened 3 new servers and did a couple of wipes so that people have a reason to play on their huge rates.

And I am not talking about xp events in particular, they can have a high base xp as far as I care, drop rates should be the ones that should be thinked very good cause dungeons get outdone fast cause of high drop rates and become fairly useless regarding what items they give.

BANE13
March 27th, 2014, 09:58 AM
I agree w/ Furia.. Xp rates dont bother me, its the drop rates. I myself prefer less drop rate than the XP rate.
It makes farming like its meant to be. Tho some want everything handed to them.:confused:

RagingAsura
March 27th, 2014, 11:12 AM
DO NOT GIVE XP EVENTS, keep it constant - that way you will get a constant flow of players. If you introduce XP events, then you are forcing people to log on at certain times only, because outside of events will be seen as a waste of time. Who would want to waste grinding 12hrs when they can achieve it with 1? this will then be the accepted way of grinding and no one will even bother logging in when it's non-event time. A real game killer.
I'm 100% with Furia on this. Speaking from alot of experience, this is the worst killer of all - silly XP events all the time, maybe more so than Item mall. Special festive events are welcome though because they are rare. Save these for big occasions like XMAS/New year only, and not for every "xxxxx crappyrandom-makeupaday" events.

AcclaimLame
March 27th, 2014, 11:19 AM
high xp rates and events is directly responsible for killing the previous versions of 9D. yes, the community demanded it, but sometimes we need to be protected from ourselves. people leveled too quickly and then started demanding new content. it would have been nice if they'd fixed existing bugs before rushing out with additional updates, which always seemed poorly thought out and had additional bugs.

another direct consequence of leveling too fast is that it makes the distribution of wealth way too overwhelming for new people starting out in the game. it must be awfully discouraging for someone just starting out to run through hefei and find all those stands selling items for 200 million, thinking "wow, how many foxes am i going to have to kill to buy that deco?"

but the worst part of it is that all those high level players have no interaction with those low level new players, so there's nobody to give them advice and help guide them. that sort of interaction is what's going to keep people invested in the game. if you think back to why you got hooked on 9D in the first place, i'm willing to bet that it has nothing to do with the content, storyline, gameplay, or xp rates. it was probably meeting up with some nice folks in the game, chatting in a party while grinding, or hooking up with a nice band. that's really the only reason i started playing 9D back in acclaim. nowadays, everyone's so busy farming something or another in tibet or loulan that there's literally nobody around in the starter maps. even during events, it's hard to find people grinding in shi zhang or zhengzhou. some of my fondest memories are grinding back in the acclaim days with a shared xp party, when healers and hybrids could actually be useful by healing/buffing people so warriors and nukers could kill faster. it fostered a cooperative atmosphere, and cultivated teamwork. nobody ever does shared xp party anymore because of leeches, and also because there too much of a level differential within all maps- again, a direct consequence of people leveling too fast.

i think it's great that publishers listen to community input, but honestly, sometimes what we ask for is not necessarily the right thing to do. please do what's best for the longevity of the game, not what's going to satisfy the short term interests of a few.

RainbowTubeSocks
March 27th, 2014, 11:23 AM
Suba needs staff from within the community. I've just been reading and not replying to anything, but you guys are asking for some of the most ridiculous things. If I didn't know anything about 9D, and I was Deimos/kkid, I would be very confused right now. We shouldn't even be talking about the IM right now when we don't even know what kind of 9D we'll be getting.

Deimos and kkid, instead of worrying about rates and all this irrelevant mumbo jumbo, figure out what kind of game you'll be giving us. Once you figure out what kind of 9D you'll be giving us everything else will go smoothly. Certain IM items are necessary for certain versions of 9D, so if we don't even know what kind of 9d we'll be getting, why is everyone talking about the IM?

And stop crying about the small **** like weaps being broken after refinement, xp cards, scales etc. I'm getting disgusted lol

FuriaAlba
March 27th, 2014, 11:36 AM
I don't have nothing about xp events considering modern 9D or let\s not say xp events but higher xp base rate cause right now IM 12 is cap level and probably soon HG levels where each level requires about 10 hours+ (US base rate) to make so reducing them a bit isn't that bad. With time this game became way to item based in which your char level does not matter that much when we talk about 10-20 level difference between and both would have same stuff equiped (theoreticaly speaking) and to make matters even worse items are mostly based on real money requirements (which should change in a way) and let's be honest, everyone that played this game liked dungeons and the value they had and drop events just make them useless cause it's easy to get what they give in a short period of time, only dungeons that are and will be nondependant on drop change is BM and LL dungeon.

Jamie9d
March 27th, 2014, 11:39 AM
Adjust the levelling curve, increase the rates for exp but lower the rates for drop slightly and run a few events here and there. That's all we need. A few people from the community who liaison between publisher and community specifically for this game would be beneficial as well imo.

FuriaAlba
March 27th, 2014, 11:39 AM
Suba needs staff from within the community. I've just been reading and not replying to anything, but you guys are asking for some of the most ridiculous things. If I didn't know anything about 9D, and I was Deimos/kkid, I would be very confused right now. We shouldn't even be talking about the IM right now when we don't even know what kind of 9D we'll be getting.

Deimos and kkid, instead of worrying about rates and all this irrelevant mumbo jumbo, figure out what kind of game you'll be giving us. Once you figure out what kind of 9D you'll be giving us everything else will go smoothly. Certain IM items are necessary for certain versions of 9D, so if we don't even know what kind of 9d we'll be getting, why is everyone talking about the IM?

And stop crying about the small **** like weaps being broken after refinement, xp cards, scales etc. I'm getting disgusted lol

I think it's pretty obvious same as US/VN/RU but they decided they wont have blue boxes in item mall.

RainbowTubeSocks
March 27th, 2014, 11:47 AM
I think it's pretty obvious same as US/VN/RU but they decided they wont have blue boxes in item mall.

So in other words they're still running with this mixed content crap? Suba you guys need to get your sh1t together. Get someone who knows about the game on your staff list or just give up publishing this game. I rather have no publisher than to see 9D go down the same road. I don't understand how you guys prefer to publish the most broken version of 9Dragons. This "majority rules" bullsh1t pisses me off everytime because instead of doing what's right for the game now, the people in charge listen to the majority who doesn't know what they're talking about, the game gets f.ucked up even more until its too late, and everyone is @ssed out.

If you guys want a large sum of money I'll gladly give you a large sum of money as long as you listen to reasonable ideas, and actually make a move with it.

FuriaAlba
March 27th, 2014, 12:00 PM
As I am sure you noticed game isn't changed to much if at all compared to KR and since so much time passed no version is close to what korean server has to offer in general. As previously said, this game is a great money maker otherwise I don't think companies would start publishing this old game.

And I never did understand why Zerodin or what's their name decided to make so many versions but on different languages? Acclame had a client that had how many languages? For a game like this it would have been best to keep players on 1 official server/publisher instead of taking care of 5-6 companies at once which each have just 1 language.

RainbowTubeSocks
March 27th, 2014, 12:13 PM
You're right. If Suba wants $ I'll personally fund the server myself, but they'll need to get someone who knows what they're doing as a Q/A man or something. Just someone to give some logical and reasonable input.

I'll go watch Johnny Manziel's Pro Day.

FuriaAlba
March 27th, 2014, 12:45 PM
Talk to zerodin and make your own official server. :d

Aklame
March 27th, 2014, 01:06 PM
Priority should be XP curve.

Theres no way I would spend the time I did back on Bardo grinding away on any game ever again.

Jamie9d
March 27th, 2014, 01:41 PM
Talk to zerodin and make your own official server. :d

It isn't that simple.

BizaRRe123
March 27th, 2014, 02:58 PM
high xp rates and events is directly responsible for killing the previous versions of 9D..

totally wrong,just check the private,it still got more players than gc....why ?because of the exp
ppl got tired to sit like zombies in front of the pc and grind all day just to reach FD,they want to reach the cap and get some action
ps:the fall of the private was caused by the lack of the content,thats all

Jamie9d
March 27th, 2014, 03:11 PM
totally wrong,just check the private,it still got more players than gc....why ?because of the exp
ppl got tired to sit like zombies in front of the pc and grind all day just to reach FD,they want to reach the cap and get some action
ps:the fall of the private was caused by the lack of the content,thats all

That's not quite true. There were quite a few reasons for some of the private versions falling through, content was a reason but not the sole reason. I partially agree that the exp events have directly impacted the game but another big issue has also been the staff and the developers.

BizaRRe123
March 27th, 2014, 04:02 PM
That's not quite true. There were quite a few reasons for some of the private versions falling through, content was a reason but not the sole reason. I partially agree that the exp events have directly impacted the game but another big issue has also been the staff and the developers.
there was only 1 private,rest of them were sh1t
my point is....why did they went to the play9d and left the gc ?even if gc had content,staff and all shiz..... the only difference was the exp,so the exp on GC wasnt that high as some of ppl are saying
actually GC has been ruined by the low rates not by the high ones

Kkid
March 27th, 2014, 05:00 PM
Not to scare anybody, but just giving fair warning not to post links of possible private servers on the Forum (we had a problem in other games with this at one point). Dont want to see people accidentally get any bans.


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