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AndreaY
November 30th, 2014, 02:59 PM
I had read around some toughts about translations, and about someone wants all of them ready before release, and others not.

What is your POV about them?

My own, is that if really it is needed everything translated and perfect before release, we can sit here another year and wait.

Personally I think that, at least on start, will be surely needed to have ready all things a starting player will see, it means everything a player on its first days will have to interact to progress in the game.

About all other things, as some level 70 rare stuff or dialogs, I am lenient and that translations can be done while patching the running game.

Yes I understand here exists people that "eats" the game and in a few days will go to places that the average user will be in a month or more, but this kind of player is maybe the 5% of playerbase, or less. Nothing bad with that, everyone have the right to play at the pace s/he wants. I just hope those players will understand they are there thanks the fact the game has open, and not go running complains in forum about this or that still not translated.

I'm thinking it instead will be really great, whose are so good at leveling and go ahead, helping the translate of anything amiss, reporting here in forum the places/situations the translation has to be made or corrected.

Those are my toughts. What you think about translations and the game opening? How much you are willing to "deal" with anything amiss if and when it comes?

DOMOAKFrost
November 30th, 2014, 03:02 PM
I'll let Joel do the talking, even though he wrote it 12 years ago.

The Iceberg Secret, Revealed - Joel on Software (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000356.html)

NotHereCantDelete
November 30th, 2014, 03:03 PM
Fact is, poor translations not only put off new players and therefore dent revenue, but it also reflects badly on the company that released a product before it was ready.
It's almost like a new shopping mall being opened, only for someone to walk in and find there's no floor. "Oh yeah, we wanted to open sooner so we didn't finish putting the floors in."
I want Domo to arrive, but more importantly I want it to survive, which means as few bugs as possible. So those of you saying omg release it now, just... deal with it.

Zoraidal
November 30th, 2014, 03:12 PM
I'll let Joel do the talking, even though he wrote it 12 years ago.

The Iceberg Secret, Revealed - Joel on Software (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000356.html)

Excellent read. Thank you for sharing.

'nuff said. -nods-

AndreaY
November 30th, 2014, 03:26 PM
I'll let Joel do the talking, even though he wrote it 12 years ago.
That is a nice reading and I can confirm that, even 12 years later, much (if not all) of that still apply on real life.

Nice but offtopic. The topic was what you think about see translations still not done on some points of the game.

Zoraidal
November 30th, 2014, 03:36 PM
That is a nice reading and I can confirm that, even 12 years later, much (if not all) of that still apply on real life.

Nice but offtopic. The topic was what you think about see translations still not done on some points of the game.

I disagree about it being off topic. It clearly covers what can happen when non-programmers (i.e. players) see non-pretty pixels (i.e. not complete translations). They can/will see the game as incomplete or shoddy work which in turn will increase complaints and the higher likelihood of players leaving or not referring other people to the game. My opinion of the partial translation concurs with this article.

AndreaY
November 30th, 2014, 03:43 PM
Uhm I guess I were not good on explaining myself.

On the wording "what you think about", I meant what "YOU" think about.

Not what Joel thinks about.
Not what they (non programmers, players, whatever) thinks about.

But:

What SilaNarodnaya thinks about.
What Zoraidal thinks about.

Edit:

The opinion "if I see uncomplete translations, to me is an incomplete game and I don't like it" is perfectly legit point of view, there is no need to make essay links to prove how your point is good or not. After all, we are giving opinions on it, and opinions does not have to be "validated" by any academy.

Proof of that, my opinion differs but is not less valid than yours. I will make my point more straight:
"I don't care if translations are unfinished, as long as while I play I will not have to deal with them."

"deal", means I need to go forum to ask what I have to do on some dialog with answers in chinese Language. That is difficult to handle.

DOMOAKFrost
November 30th, 2014, 03:48 PM
Uhm I guess I were not good on explaining myself.

On the wording "what you think about", I meant what "YOU" think about.

Not what Joel thinks about.
Not what they (non programmers, players, whatever) thinks about.

But:

What SilaNarodnaya thinks about.
What Zoraidal thinks about.

I think what joel said represents my thoughts, there.

Zoraidal
November 30th, 2014, 03:49 PM
Uhm I guess I were not good on explaining myself.

On the wording "what you think about", I meant what "YOU" think about.

Not what Joel thinks about.
Not what they (non programmers, players, whatever) thinks about.

But:

What SilaNarodnaya thinks about.
What Zoraidal thinks about.

I stated my opinion was the same as the article.

However to clarify it - I do not think a partial translation is the way to go. As I stated in the other thread, I flew everywhere I possibly could when I first learned to fly in DoMO and had I seen little to no translation in higher level areas I would have questioned it. I would have thought the game was incomplete and rushed and I would have been concerned about the wisdom of continued leveling if I couldn't understand what I'd be reading when I got there.

I know players are anxious to get the game out but we've been given a chance that we thought would never happen. Why rush a good thing when being a little patient will make it great?

AndreaY
November 30th, 2014, 03:59 PM
I agree on that.
As said before, I am fine with some things being finished later, but if game starts already polished and all, that is a great thing.

SeanCT
November 30th, 2014, 03:59 PM
I'd assume this is mostly a non issue anyway... I doubt Aeria did their own translation which means SS owns the translation and would pass it on to Suba... It's possible there were new items / quests added that have no translation but I'm guessing very little if any is needed.

Gambachi
November 30th, 2014, 04:01 PM
What does the duck say? Neigh!! One of the best mistranslations ever in the history of gaming and it came from DOMO. :awsum:

DOMOAKFrost
November 30th, 2014, 04:06 PM
I'd assume this is mostly a non issue anyway... I doubt Aeria did their own translation which means SS owns the translation and would pass it on to Suba... It's possible there were new items / quests added that have no translation but I'm guessing very little if any is needed.

-Story time-

Aeria received a translation that was done by gametribe, however, Aeria had its own localization department (which for a while was just Ittoujuu, you might have seen him around here since he also played domo). Ittoujuu ended up rewriting some of the dialogue, correcting mistakes and whatnot (though apparently not enough to correct the neigh thing and Phyllis Summers being male, but he's only one man).

The love for alliteration wasn't even his doing, actually. Somebody at gametribe really loved having everything alliterated, and he just left well enough alone.

That being said, considering a localization isn't worth anything without the game it's done on, as well as the fact that SS gave Aeria GT's translations, I'm fairly certain SS retained the rights on the localization even if GT/Aeria were the ones that used the manpower for it.

SeanCT
November 30th, 2014, 04:17 PM
-Story time-

Aeria received a translation that was done by gametribe, however, Aeria had its own localization department (which for a while was just Ittoujuu, you might have seen him around here since he also played domo). Ittoujuu ended up rewriting some of the dialogue, correcting mistakes and whatnot (though apparently not enough to correct the neigh thing and Phyllis Summers being male, but he's only one man).

The love for alliteration wasn't even his doing, actually. Somebody at gametribe really loved having everything alliterated, and he just left well enough alone.

That being said, considering a localization isn't worth anything without the game it's done on, as well as the fact that SS gave Aeria GT's translations, I'm fairly certain SS retained the rights on the localization even if GT/Aeria were the ones that used the manpower for it.

Well in that case unless Aeria gave the modified translation back to SS we could end up with whatever GT had and possibly Suba modifications on top of it. Still I think whatever needs to be done on this front should be relatively minor.

DOMOAKFrost
November 30th, 2014, 04:19 PM
Well in that case unless Aeria gave the modified translation back to SS we could end up with whatever GT had and possibly Suba modifications on top of it. Still I think whatever needs to be done on this front should be relatively minor.

SS was the one that actually implemented text changes into the game. Kinda pointless to do localization work if it's not going to be in the game, so pretty sure Aeria gave it to SS.

SeanCT
November 30th, 2014, 04:23 PM
SS was the one that actually implemented text changes into the game. Kinda pointless to do localization work if it's not going to be in the game, so pretty sure Aeria gave it to SS.

Ok that makes more since. I was actually surprised SS would give Aeria the tools to modify the DBF's since it would lead inconsistency between what Aeria had and what they had.

KashyDragneel
November 30th, 2014, 05:26 PM
SS was the one that actually implemented text changes into the game. Kinda pointless to do localization work if it's not going to be in the game, so pretty sure Aeria gave it to SS.

So that's why Prickly Phantasms became Audrey Offspring.
Guess it was something to do with some of the cencoring on Aeria.

I really think we should let suba take their time and get everything just right, as far as I know there is loads of stuff that TW Domo has now that Aeria and GT didn't. Like whole new classes... Max lvl 75 etc.
I also think this kinda thread almost seems like a whine for them to hurry, whether that's the case or not, and we've already been asked not to do that.

Uphio
November 30th, 2014, 06:05 PM
Like whole new classes... Max lvl 75 etc.

Where'd you find this?
Share!

DOMOAKFrost
November 30th, 2014, 06:26 PM
So that's why Prickly Phantasms became Audrey Offspring.
Guess it was something to do with some of the cencoring on Aeria.

I really think we should let suba take their time and get everything just right, as far as I know there is loads of stuff that TW Domo has now that Aeria and GT didn't. Like whole new classes... Max lvl 75 etc.
I also think this kinda thread almost seems like a whine for them to hurry, whether that's the case or not, and we've already been asked not to do that.

You can also notice that Prickly Phantasm is alliterative. Audrey Offspring is a reference to the little shop of horrors, an American film.

AndreaY
November 30th, 2014, 06:29 PM
I can just guess we will start with vanilla DOMO or something little after, so don't have to worry much at the start.

Dunno if everything throw at start but will be difficult for new players to handle all together.

AndreaY
November 30th, 2014, 06:34 PM
I also think this kinda thread almost seems like a whine for them to hurry.
That's not, if you wonder about it. Just talking of localizations and found them incomplete somewhere in, it happened in the past.
General consensus is better have all done.

EnochP
November 30th, 2014, 07:08 PM
It's not gonna take a year to translate it. I do a lot of translating in my job and if I suspect how the game files are handled (meaning you can find the text quite easily) you can whip through stuff pretty quickly. I mean DOMO isn't thaaat big a game.

Livipo
November 30th, 2014, 07:50 PM
Well, luckily, translating is not our job. Its Suba's job, and no matter what we think about it I'm sure they will figure out how to get it done, in their own time-frame.
I think they can spend as much time with it as needed, because it is their business, not mine. :P
I'm not gonna waste any grey hairs on it xD

FoxyFi
November 30th, 2014, 10:31 PM
Erm, well...even Aeria's version of DoMO was poorly translated. Did you mean to that same quality or better? Because parts of the mirror story were lost in translation and made absolutely no sense. Same with a lot of the quests. I'd appreciate if they cleaned it up to be a better and more fluid read, but it's not necessary and would not kill the game for me in any way if they left it as is.

That being said, a lot of people don't even bother to read the story. Either way I'm sure it'll work out.


http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31600000/idk-lol-captions-31668638-500-333.jpg

Kazaaakplethkilik
November 30th, 2014, 11:15 PM
Fact is, poor translations not only put off new players and therefore dent revenue, but it also reflects badly on the company that released a product before it was ready.
It's almost like a new shopping mall being opened, only for someone to walk in and find there's no floor. "Oh yeah, we wanted to open sooner so we didn't finish putting the floors in."
I want Domo to arrive, but more importantly I want it to survive, which means as few bugs as possible. So those of you saying omg release it now, just... deal with it.

An MMORPG, in my opinion, is slightly different. It can be released with some parts not done because they can fix it later. If they had say, all of the level 60+ items/quests untranslated, they could probably get away with it for long enough to get around to it in a later patch.
Some parts are not essential, like, even in the mall analogy, you don't need to have 0 vacant shops to open a mall, you can leave some of it for later.
If translating were to be holding back the release of the game, I'd say it would be smart to translate as many necessary parts to the game as possible, and polish up the rest later. The only people who should be affected by any kind of skimping on translations, would be mega-grinders who get up to the level cap as soon as possible, and those people probably like the game enough to overlook a few untranslated bits.

DOMOAKFrost
November 30th, 2014, 11:18 PM
An MMORPG, in my opinion, is slightly different. It can be released with some parts not done because they can fix it later. If they had say, all of the level 60+ items/quests untranslated, they could probably get away with it for long enough to get around to it in a later patch.
Some parts are not essential, like, even in the mall analogy, you don't need to have 0 vacant shops to open a mall, you can leave some of it for later.
If translating were to be holding back the release of the game, I'd say it would be smart to translate as many necessary parts to the game as possible, and polish up the rest later. The only people who should be affected by any kind of skimping on translations, would be mega-grinders who get up to the level cap as soon as possible, and those people probably like the game enough to overlook a few untranslated bits.

if the end user could see it as untranslated, you have a problem. It sends a signal that the publisher likes to cut corners, and undermines the trust the players have in them to make the right decision on things.

Kazaaakplethkilik
December 1st, 2014, 12:27 AM
if the end user could see it as untranslated, you have a problem. It sends a signal that the publisher likes to cut corners, and undermines the trust the players have in them to make the right decision on things.
I disagree. If the translation of some dialogue you can only see far into the game were the ONLY thing keeping the game from being released, there isn't much of a point in taking their time to take care of it, as they can fix it before most players ever get to that point.
Besides, I think people can understand if some parts are missed, the people working for suba are only human.

DOMOAKFrost
December 1st, 2014, 02:21 AM
I disagree. If the translation of some dialogue you can only see far into the game were the ONLY thing keeping the game from being released, there isn't much of a point in taking their time to take care of it, as they can fix it before most players ever get to that point.
Besides, I think people can understand if some parts are missed, the people working for suba are only human.

While it doesn't make sense to fix every bug, it is precisely these "small" things that has the most business value.

Let's not delude ourselves here. We couldn't keep Aeria's DOMO up. If we don't get new spenders, there's no way suba's DOMO will live either. If we were to get new spenders, the last thing we want them to think would be suba is doing a shoddy job cutting corners for profit.

DOMO is almost 10 years old. While it might be the best thing since sliced bread to you, new players will NOT have that impression. If suba doesn't downright impress, DOMO will not get new blood.

Nethys
December 1st, 2014, 02:32 AM
An easy way to make it simpler would be to gate off the stuff that hasn't been translated yet. Translate all the sub-30 stuff, release beta limiting access to sub-30, continue translating through beta, get to 40, release game with access only up to there, continue translating, etc. That way customers aren't seeing anything unpolished, but you don't have to do everything before release.

Milachi
December 1st, 2014, 02:42 AM
I don't expect them to release Sneaky Peak or Mount Babel right off the bat since no one will get there in a just a week. Also the Kickstarter goal of 5 updates within the next year should get them thinking about finished whatever else needs to be implemented by then.

So unfinished translations on 60+ content at this point seems reasonable to me.

AndreaY
December 1st, 2014, 04:16 AM
...Translate all the sub-30 stuff, release beta limiting access to sub-30, continue translating through beta, get to 40, release game with access only up to there, continue translating, etc...
Incremental level cap have been used in the past and worked good, it also helped the average player (almost) keep pace with the grinders ones. Only drawback is the grinders will complain to be capped, as long as they cap long before everyone else:p

TheRealTangerine
December 1st, 2014, 04:42 AM
I wuvved the GT translation, Im sure the Snakes in den were named differently too....*tries to remember*

Kazaaakplethkilik
December 1st, 2014, 09:20 AM
While it doesn't make sense to fix every bug, it is precisely these "small" things that has the most business value.

Let's not delude ourselves here. We couldn't keep Aeria's DOMO up. If we don't get new spenders, there's no way suba's DOMO will live either. If we were to get new spenders, the last thing we want them to think would be suba is doing a shoddy job cutting corners for profit.

DOMO is almost 10 years old. While it might be the best thing since sliced bread to you, new players will NOT have that impression. If suba doesn't downright impress, DOMO will not get new blood.

But it's like, someone who plays enough to get to 50, can no longer really be considered a 'new' player, at that point they've already invested enough time in the game that they won't quit over some minor detail. Additionally: The new players aren't all going to be playing on day 1, since there is a time gap between the release and the time it would take someone to even get to the content I'm talking about, using that time effectively to translate it while having the game out so they can patch it in later seems perfectly fine to me.

Furthermore! If you do hit a point where stuff isn't translated, it's not like you have to stop playing because you can't read anything, because you can play all the classes; the multiclass feature also increases the gap between a new player and high level content.
Not to mention that most of the gameplay in the crafting system involves waiting for hours as your character stands there collecting materials while you do nothing. Really, I think they'd have plenty of time to get something like this done if they needed it.

DOMOAKFrost
December 1st, 2014, 11:55 AM
But it's like, someone who plays enough to get to 50, can no longer really be considered a 'new' player, at that point they've already invested enough time in the game that they won't quit over some minor detail. Additionally: The new players aren't all going to be playing on day 1, since there is a time gap between the release and the time it would take someone to even get to the content I'm talking about, using that time effectively to translate it while having the game out so they can patch it in later seems perfectly fine to me.

Furthermore! If you do hit a point where stuff isn't translated, it's not like you have to stop playing because you can't read anything, because you can play all the classes; the multiclass feature also increases the gap between a new player and high level content.
Not to mention that most of the gameplay in the crafting system involves waiting for hours as your character stands there collecting materials while you do nothing. Really, I think they'd have plenty of time to get something like this done if they needed it.

did you forget? the 70+ areas in domo are located right next to the 10-20 areas, not to mention they can avoid the monsters by flying on field maps.

you can't count on low level players not seeing high level content in domo.

KashyDragneel
December 1st, 2014, 12:40 PM
I wuvved the GT translation, Im sure the Snakes in den were named differently too....*tries to remember*

Sky Sound Snakes? If i remember correctly Mr amnesia :D

MinatoU
December 1st, 2014, 12:48 PM
Yeah we had SSS in GT. We also had Swordsmen that used Swords and Fencers that used Sabres. The wiki was confused about that a lot

DOMOAKFrost
December 1st, 2014, 01:14 PM
Yeah we had SSS in GT. We also had Swordsmen that used Swords and Fencers that used Sabres. The wiki was confused about that a lot

it's because swords are straight edged and cavalry sabers tends to be curved. The Patton saber was notable because it was straight and people debated about whether that design was brilliant or retarded for some time. (until machine guns completely obsoleted cavalry, of course)

On the other hand, the GT localizer was clearly thinking of competition fencing where the weapon can be called a saber. Analogy kinda fell apart at that point though, sadly.

Kazaaakplethkilik
December 1st, 2014, 02:26 PM
did you forget? the 70+ areas in domo are located right next to the 10-20 areas, not to mention they can avoid the monsters by flying on field maps.

you can't count on low level players not seeing high level content in domo.
Yeah, but, it's like, monster names/skills shouldn't be hard to translate. NPC Dialogue is the main thing, and who the hell goes around talking to the NPCs in an area? It's not like they'll be seeing the cutscenes from quests, or the high level items. There is a lot of stuff that a newbie would not be able to see.

DOMOAKFrost
December 1st, 2014, 02:32 PM
Yeah, but, it's like, monster names/skills shouldn't be hard to translate. NPC Dialogue is the main thing, and who the hell goes around talking to the NPCs in an area? It's not like they'll be seeing the cutscenes from quests, or the high level items. There is a lot of stuff that a newbie would not be able to see.

first of all, people will be selling high level items in eversun stalls.

Second of all, while they won't be seeing cutscenes, they can certainly talk to NPCs in the air.

Third of all, it only takes one person to see it and post in forums and then everyone will know.

It's never good policy to leave accessible content untranslated. Bad PR.

Kazaaakplethkilik
December 1st, 2014, 02:49 PM
first of all, people will be selling high level items in eversun stalls.

Second of all, while they won't be seeing cutscenes, they can certainly talk to NPCs in the air.

Third of all, it only takes one person to see it and post in forums and then everyone will know.

It's never good policy to leave accessible content untranslated. Bad PR.

First: There are items that can't be stalled, like quest items.
Second: Most people don't even read what the NPCs say.
Third: I don't think people care as much as you think they do about some untranslated stuff.

I'm still of the mind: if it's holding back the release of the game, then leaving later parts of the game to be translated later is okay.
It's an MMO, people aren't going to reach the end in a day. I've played Eden Eternal, and after an update, seen an NPC speaking in total chinese, and you know what, it didn't affect the game at all.

DOMOAKFrost
December 1st, 2014, 02:52 PM
First: There are items that can't be stalled, like quest items.
Second: Most people don't even read what the NPCs say.
Third: I don't think people care as much as you think they do about some untranslated stuff.

I'm still of the mind: if it's holding back the release of the game, then leaving later parts of the game to be translated later is okay.
It's an MMO, people aren't going to reach the end in a day. I've played Eden Eternal, and after an update, seen an NPC speaking in total chinese, and you know what, it didn't affect the game at all.

the playerbase is nowhere near as forgiving as you, I'm afraid, especially the ones willing to spend.

Kazaaakplethkilik
December 1st, 2014, 02:53 PM
the playerbase is nowhere near as forgiving as you, I'm afraid, especially the ones willing to spend.

I think you're underestimating how uncaring people are about generic NPC dialogue.

Miradora
December 1st, 2014, 02:54 PM
The achievement system is among the most notable and meaty text that was never translated, highly in need of quality localization for the names, and players can encounter that by roughly level 5. These will pop up out of nowhere when you achieve the requirements, and if you don't know what it says you are totally lost. I lost track of how many times I had to explain to people on IC Domo what achievement they got (and I had to look up more than a few myself as well).

It is silly to assume that the only untranslated stuff is 'high level stuff'.

Kazaaakplethkilik
December 1st, 2014, 02:57 PM
The achievement system is among the most notable and meaty text that was never translated, highly in need of quality localization for the names, and players can encounter that by roughly level 5. These will pop up out of nowhere when you achieve the requirements, and if you don't know what it says you are totally lost. I lost track of how many times I had to explain to people on IC Domo what achievement they got (and I had to look up more than a few myself as well).

It is silly to assume that the only untranslated stuff is 'high level stuff'.
Not assuming that it is. I was saying that if they had to choose some content for translating, they should do beginner stuff first, and get the rest done in patches later.