Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 14

Thread: Mechanical flaws of a class

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Intrawebs
    Posts
    169

    Default Mechanical flaws of a class

    DISCLAIMER:

    Here I'll depict root issues archers are plagued by.

    T5 and rebalancing did not really address any of these, nor anything else that's happened over the past 5 years I think.

    Bear in mind that the following wall'o'text is written from a 9x perspective, so if any of the mentioned things are untrue beyond that mark feel absolutely free to correct me.

    I'll mostly use ATAs as reference, as they're the only other native AGI ranged class in PT. While there are Automechs I consider them to be niche. Also whatever I say is not intended to make any other class OP or asking for a nerf bat - it's all merely to highlight some fundamental issues.

    FORMULAS

    The following formulas will be used as reference - if they're outdated, please let me know.

    Priston Tale: Stat Formula

    Further, all archer calculations will be made using my archer as template (95) looking as follows:
    • STRENGTH: 77
    • SPIRIT: 72
    • TALENT: 80
    • AGILITY: 350
    • HP: 55


    Using a Mirage Bow (80D).

    Issues: First issues arise by how ABS works in PT or more precisely, how it is being generated by upping strength. Furthermore strength also raises HP, in addition to ABS. Thus STR is an eHP (effective HP) wonder compared to all other stats.

    Lets compare a meele class to a ranged class solely by stats. Stats for the meele class (Fighter) at 95:
    • STRENGTH: 381
    • SPIRIT: 64
    • TALENT: 90
    • AGILITY: 72
    • HP: 27


    A fighter almost receives 10ABS solely through his mainstat while also increasing his HP and damage output. My archer barely receives 2 ABS. If we take a min STR AS Wyvern (164 STR) as reference an archer would at least receive 4 ABS but zero damage output all while this would also require a reduction in AGI.

    AGI provides defense however, and 100 DEF = 1 ABS. 350 AGI = 175 DEF (AGI*0.5 = DEF GAIN) => 1.75 ABS. So the total is 3.75 ABS vs. almost 10 ABS with a minor DEF advantage - assuming the same armor is being worn. Low STR at best compensates armor to be on par.

    Then there is the issue of HP. Meele classes scale far better than archers do.

    Fighters/Pikes:

    (Level * 2.1) + (Strength * 0.8) + (health * 2.4) -10
    Mech, Knight & Atalanta

    (Level * 2.1) + (Strength * 0.6) + (health * 2.2) -5
    Archer

    (Level * 1.8) + (Strength * 0.3) + (health *2.1)
    MP Formula:

    Archer, Fighter, Pike

    (Level * 0.6) + (Spirit * 2.2) + additional (Amulets, Rings, Gems, etc.)
    So what is to be established here?
    • AGI as a mainstat, unlike STR, provides almost close to none survivability in comparison. Realistically at best half the survivability.
    • Mixing AGI and STR on a range class may balances out the survivability to an extend but the damage output will in turn take a huge hit.
    • Archers HP scaling is worse than all other classes in addition to a lack of survivability contribution by the class' mainstat.
    • Archer MP, too, is at the bottom of the barrel


    2H WEAPONS

    Lets take a look at 2H weapons.

    You will quickly notice that all 2H weapons in this game come with % BLK with the exception of one: Bows. Looking at 80D items you'll find that most weapons provide (Axes, Swords) 10% ~ 14% (Scythes, Daggers). 10~14% may not sound like much but believe me that inside of a monster horde it'd tremendously reduce damage intake.

    Additionally to a lack of innate survivability stat on Bows there is also the critical rating and damage, both of which isn't particular outstanding. In fact they suck.

    Mirage Bow (Perf): 45 - 65 21% crit AVG dmg: 55
    Titan Sword (Perf): 50 - 66 23% crit AVG dmg: 58
    Extreme Axe (Perf): 53 - 74 21% crit AVG dmg: 63.5
    Extreme Spear (Perf): 43 - 82 21% crit AVG dmg: 62.5

    So, not only is there no % BLK / EVASION on bows, they also have the least amount of raw damage. As for the Knight being behind Fighter/Pike on 80D note that Titan Sword is in fact 80C. So the 80D bows still loses to a 80C sword.

    For hilarity's sake: Lets compare mirage bow to the 80D Jav.

    Spiked Javelin (Perf): 43 - 58 17% crit AVG dmg: 50.5

    NOTE: 1H weapons with the same SPD are faster than 2H weapons and allow for a shield to be worn at all times. Further: ATAs have higher ranged (self buffed) than archers. However: Being ranged in a hack and sly is not feasible, in particularly not when training. Yes you pull and semi-kite you don#t however eat tremendously fewer hits than meeles would in the process, assuming they position themselves correctly.

    • Bows have no survivability stat (BLK/EVA)
    • Bows have supremely inferior base damage
    • Javelins are on par with bows while only being 1H


    That's it for now. I'll continue with a skill overview in another post in the future.
    Last edited by Erbse; July 8th, 2015 at 06:47 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Intrawebs
    Posts
    169

    Default

    Placeholder for future post

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Intrawebs
    Posts
    169

    Default

    I'm using the following sheet(s) as reference:

    Priston Tale: Archer Skills

    FALCONS

    Falcons are summons that provide HP regen and damage. If at least it provided noteworthy HP regen or better yet, MP regen, we might could overlooked its incredibly sad damage output.

    For 30 Skill Points (20SP, 10EP) you get both falcons to 10 and FoN 10.

    This totals in 96 - 164 damage per falcon attack. Falcon attacks every 4th hit (8spd weapon), so effectively 1/4 of the damage per hit:
    => 24 - 41 DPS for 30 (!) Skill Points.

    I'll not go further into the subject as numbers typically don't lie.

    PARTY CONTRIBUTION (FORCE OF NATURE)

    Force of nature provides a slight damage boost (30 AVG damage), at best roughly ~10% or less at 9x for 10 EP. The AR is negligible for the archer itself. 10 points for 30 damage. 15 damage if it's a party mate. The only reason to even consider this skill would be due to all other skills being even worse.

    Unfortunately an archer's group contribution ends right then and there already.

    DION'S EYE

    Unless changed DION'S EYE only affects the weapons ATR. Thus at 10 doubles your Bow's ATR. Effectively 10 SP for ~200ATR. Hardly worth it, especially considering that due to agility most are likely to break the 2000ATR somewhere around high 9x or early 10x.

    WOLF

    Completely ignoring its retarded AI, Wolf falls extremely short.

    • Static health increase - eventually may be superceded/outdone by monster's damage output. 10x and 11x's may know better.
    • Static ATR increase - Archers have the single highest base ATR. Why wouldn't Wolf resort to it in any shape or form? Instead we find ourselves fiddling with our thumbs until that mule of a dog hits its target to draw aggro.
    • Defense resorts to main stat (AGI) - As laid out in the previous post we'll be inferior than any other class here unless we give up on even more defense (pure AGI), here again some sort of contribution from ATR may be more worthwhile.
    • Some monsters (looking at you CC) have multiplies against pets/summons. Wolf gets practically instagibbed by CC while it can take other mobs comparatively fine.


    EVASION MASTERY

    Yay! Our only survivability skill out all we've got. Some claim it may be bugged and only works for the first 3-4 levels. I wouldn't know. Subjectively I'd not be surprised if they are correct.

    PERFORATION

    A very good skill. Two issues I see, though:

    • Monsters of new content stopped flinching (Greedy Lake and onwards) so kiting became infinitely harder
    • Its traveling path is rather narrow - Though it has likely higher output than PS, PS still may be a competitor due to its width


    AVALANCHE

    Arguably our best skill (pre T5? Many seem to prefer Thunder Roop these days). Very mana friendly.

    [b]SCOUT HAWK/b]

    The sole fact this is even listed should indicate how horrendous the other skills most be.

    Though Scout Hawk shows to increase ATK P it in fact increases ATR. Classic translation error. Generally though: More potent than Dion's Eye but needs frequent re-casting.

    BOTTOM LINE:
    • The skill set is bad that most archers by 9x don't even know where to dump their points. Might as well leave them unused due to frustration.
    • There is but one survivability skill, which we'd be in dire need of (See Post #1)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Intrawebs
    Posts
    169

    Default

    CONCLUSION

    • Archers receive less value from their stat points due to distribution (by class/item design) and formulas
    • Archers have multiple AR boosting skills while it's the class with the highest (and more than sufficient) AR by default
    • Archers have but one defensive skill they can make use of
    • Archers don't have noteworthy group skills/buffs
    • An Archer's Pet scales rather indecently
    • Bows are the worst items in the game


    SOLUTIONS
    • Make sure that archers get at least as much out of their stats than other classes (weighting may be subject of a discussion)
    • Possibly redesign AR related skills in something worthwhile (Not gonna happen /methinks)
    • Consider ATR contribution to Wolverine's stats (AR, DEF, HP)
    • Modify Bows to come with % BLK / EVASION by default (probably needs new drops and item replacement on user side)
    • Bring Bow damage on par


    Point #1 is likely to be the worst offender of them all, while the other ones merely add insult to injury.

    Feel free to discuss away and tell me where I've gone wrong, assuming I have accidentally overlooked anything.
    Last edited by Erbse; July 8th, 2015 at 09:03 AM.

  5. #5

    Default

    While I do agree archers got the short end of the rebalance (especially with t5 skills, which I hear are almost useless), I would say a big different in the stat calculations between archer and melee classes is due range vs melee. Melee classes require more blk/hp/abs because they are forced to tank much more damage than range classes (including mages etc). Even in other games, range classes are normally more fragile than melee classes. That being said, they are also normally compensated not only with range, but also with slightly superior damage. This is the biggest area where Archers are lacking I think, is that their damage lags behind other classes, which is opposite. They should have a slight advantage in combo with their range. Concerning Atlantas, bows vs javs have been compared on an auto mech and they have been found to be equal in straight damage per second. This concerns straight weapon damage, not including skills. This is also a misbalance, due to a 2h should have more dps than a 1h. Atlantas also normally go higher strength for armors and shields, normally higher than archers do. They also have a shorter range, and therefore naturally get a bigger benefit from a tanking standpoint... again, they should do less damage than an archer.

    So I agree, it does need some attention, especially concerning the archers damage output... however I honestly don't see it happening anytime soon. But here's to hoping!!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Intrawebs
    Posts
    169

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drsalt50 View Post
    While I do agree archers got the short end of the rebalance (especially with t5 skills, which I hear are almost useless), I would say a big different in the stat calculations between archer and melee classes is due range vs melee. Melee classes require more blk/hp/abs because they are forced to tank much more damage than range classes (including mages etc). Even in other games, range classes are normally more fragile than melee classes. That being said, they are also normally compensated not only with range, but also with slightly superior damage. This is the biggest area where Archers are lacking I think, is that their damage lags behind other classes, which is opposite.
    By principal that's how it works. Though, again, while PT is a MMO it's still more or less a Hack'n'Slay. There are no true tanks, damage dealers or dedicated healers/supporters. While some classes qualify for a certain position more than others at the end of the day they're all fairly equal in their ability to stand their ground, minus the archer.

    They should have a slight advantage in combo with their range. Concerning Atlantas, bows vs javs have been compared on an auto mech and they have been found to be equal in straight damage per second. This concerns straight weapon damage, not including skills. This is also a misbalance, due to a 2h should have more dps than a 1h. Atlantas also normally go higher strength for armors and shields, normally higher than archers do. They also have a shorter range, and therefore naturally get a bigger benefit from a tanking standpoint... again, they should do less damage than an archer.
    Aside from the defensive stats a shield has, it's really the lack of any % BLK / Eva % on bows that completely breaks an Archer's neck, aside from the fact that stat points return less value per point than any other class receives, insofar these formulas are accurate.

    On another note, I think ATAs have a skill that increases range. With that buff they actually exceed bow range. Not sure if that's a go-to skill (anymore) though or if that applies past 10x. Either way, I'm not particularly interested in a pissing contest between Archers and Atas rather than highlighting issues that have probably been around forever.

    When T2 was the highest Tier available Archer were likely OP due to falcon, ever since however the decline has been tremendous and I don't think a whole lot have caught up as to why on a mechanical level rather than intuitively having felt gimped compared to all others - rightfully so mind you.

    So I agree, it does need some attention, especially concerning the archers damage output... however I honestly don't see it happening anytime soon. But here's to hoping!!
    Well, we've had the old Suba staff push formula changes through. That was when they included AGI into the weight formula to take at least a tidy burden off of archers and atas, since they were mostly around ~600ish total weight at that time.

    EDIT: It seems there was a change that makes AGI give HP to an extend. I already wondered why my archer felt more tanky than when I left. Considered monster's damage may been lowered. Generally STR contributing to damage would still be favorable (though there'd need to be a balance to still make AGI the more worthwhile investment) as well as the % BLK / Evasion / increased damage in bows.
    Last edited by Erbse; July 8th, 2015 at 12:58 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Intrawebs
    Posts
    169

    Default

    UPDATE

    Hey everyone, here is an update that rectifies quite a few things from the OP. It's not so much that the OP is wrong but various information is outdated. Most notably the tremendous changes to FoN.

    FORCE OF NATURE

    FoN was changed in a way that at level 10 it now adds 110 (!!) damage rather than the old 30 damage at 10. That's practically quadruple. Now FoN addresses the damage issues I mentioned in regards to bow in the OP. However, as great as FoN is (must 10 by all means) it's merely a bandaid fix and treats the symptom rather than fixing the cause.

    A 9x archer will approx. have 200-300 damage unbuffed in 80D gear. That means an average damage of 250. FoN alone almost provides a 50% flat damage increase for 10 points. It actually beats Shooting Mastery during 9x. Unfortunately it doesn't count towards AoE.

    Going further into the 10xs, possibly 11xs:

    400-500 damage = ~350 damage. Here FoN would still provide a flat 33% damage increase. That is absolutely insane. FoN is nothing but extremely overpowered - rightfully so given the core issues but if I was a game designer I'd have sent whoever came up with that as a fix back to the drawing table. Yedang decided not to, apparently.

    HEALTH

    AGI contributes now to health at 50% of its value. That increases our HP pool. YAY! However, if anyone has played D3 for a bit you know that HP only matters if your defense amount to anything. Namely having 1000 HP with no defenses is worse than having 500 with proper mitigation. As such, while appreciated, the change doesn't address core scaling issues at 9x.

    LOW/HIGH STR

    Since Event Girl is around I made the following two screens

    pure.jpg

    str.jpg

    One shows pure stats, the other Wyvern Armor stats.

    216-290 = 253 AVG Damage
    248-334 = 291 AVG Damage

    Netloss of STR compared to PURE => ~13% for ~13 ABS (Synth <-> Wyvern)

    Overall the difference strikes me as unexpectedly slim. 57 -> 70 ABS equals a ~22% gain. Of course this number is individuals and heavily depends on your sub gear stats. The higher base ABS you got the less 13 additional ABS would be worth.

    The STR requirements past 9x comes to our favor as STR req hardly raise but defensive stats sky rocket in comparison.

    Frankly speaking: I personally don't see a reason as why low str / pure should be considered at 10x. The damage loss for survivability gain is more than acceptably. Below and to 9x it's debatable. Inevitably a lot of headache could perhaps been saved in retrospective.
    Last edited by Erbse; July 10th, 2015 at 04:29 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,254

    Default

    The reason why FoN was so over buffed was probably to balance the low damage if archers wanted to wear high level gear. After the skill rebalance archers now have more flexibility in whether they want survivability or dps

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Intrawebs
    Posts
    169

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Foomps View Post
    The reason why FoN was so over buffed was probably to balance the low damage if archers wanted to wear high level gear. After the skill rebalance archers now have more flexibility in whether they want survivability or dps
    Except, as I said, it's at best a bandaid. A welcome one given the class' state but bandaid none the less.

    While FoN now balances single target damage out it doesn't address the bottom line gap existing due to stat value per point as well as crappy bow itemization. Finally, the damage gap still exists in the AoE department as FoN does not affect Perforation and the like. It's the easy way out they took but I'm rather used to that approach in the MMO market.

    To be fair however, I can live with it. At least am willing to, to an extent. Something is better than nothing after all

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    196

    Default

    I was actually gunna post about this. I've realized that my 92 ata is stronger and more effective than my 102 archer. It sucks. Archers were never supposed to have great abs/hp because they have range, but the atk power is seriously lacking in the skills, stats, and bows. Archers were at par with other characters a few years ago, especially with perforation. However, after T5 and all the rebalances, archers have become the worst characters. The AOE skill can no longer keep up with the other classes, and avalanche/thunder roop are still weak since archers' atk power is so low. Bows need better atk power (and maybe better speed?), and the formula needs to be redone for more atk power as well.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •